Side effects of changing time scale

[Foz]

You're simply wrong here, Smith. Modding has never been a function of keeping individual players happy. The primary reason any company includes the ability to mod their game is in the hopes that people will release vast amounts of mods that will get other players on board and thus sell more copies of their game. It also serves to significantly lengthen the lifespan of the game by keeping things fresh from new mod-injected content, again motivated by the hope that this causes more sales and gains the game/series more acclaim (which causes more sales next installment). I'm not saying companies specifically do not intend players to mod the game, I'm simply saying it's not the reason the ability to mod the game is there.

I fail to see how wanting to make a campaign longer is cheating, which is basically what you are accusing everyone of doing who makes the campaign last longer. It's no more cheating than adding your own unit to the game.

Precisely right - they both are, because they fundamentally change how the game plays. More on this below - "cheating" is NOT what I'm getting at.

I agree that 6 months to train a unit makes sense. I also think that the actual unit/building costs shouldn't need to be changed. The buildings should cost the same, and the increased length of time needed to build them should offset the longer campaign time. If dirt roads takes 2 years (1 turn) to build and 400 florins, it should still cost 400 florins, but just take longer (4 turns) in a slower campaign.

Also, I was thinking about the fact that making the campaign slower paced actually makes agents more useful. In my vanilla campaigns, assassins, and often times priests and spies, were virtually useless. Why assassinate a king or family member when you can jsut roll in with your army and take him out? Why bother sending priests in when you can just roll in with your army, take the city, and build some churches? Extended time will greatly improve agent warfare because you can't jsut build an uber army right away, nor can you march in and build a church in one turn.

It's ideas like this that are exactly why I have commented as I have, Smith. You've actually endorsed making most things operate at the same per-year rate, but allowing units to be recruited 4 times faster than usual, and for everything in game to move 4 times further than usual in a given amount of time (not to mention that religious conversion which no one mentioned will happen at a per-year rate 4 times faster than it used to). I don't care at all what you do to your game honestly - I have no personal stake in that. What I do have, though, is a concern about people using a mod like this and then contributing to discussions on this forum. Any one of those 3 changes I just mentioned is enough to make any discussions about gameplay with users of this mod entirely worthless. My comments have not been motivated by some overdeveloped sense of what is cheating, but rather by the fact that doing this to the game fundamentally changes it, and people should at least know that if they consistently play the game with this modification, they pretty much can't comment in the regular gameplay threads because they aren't playing the same game anymore.

In order to possibly avoid that, you'd have to at least add:

5) 1/4 movement speed for all units/agents
6) 1/4 recruit speed for agents/units
7) 1/4 religious conversion rates

So I guess the pertinent point is, do you want this to change the gameplay, or to try to stay as parallel to it as possible? If the case turns out to be the former, I'd request you move your discussion to the modding threads since as I said it would not be sufficiently close to the base game to be discussed alongside it.

[Agent Smith]

You're simply wrong here, Smith. Modding has never been a function of keeping individual players happy.

Am I? You are seemingly agreeing with me.

The primary reason any company includes the ability to mod their game is in the hopes that people will release vast amounts of mods that will get other players on board and thus sell more copies of their game.

And why weren't those other players "on board" to start with? It's because they weren't happy with the finished product. I agree modding gets other people on board, but it is for the reason I stated. Allowing people to tweak their game allows for a more customizable experience and happy gamers. And happy gamers = more copies sold = more money for CA.

It also serves to significantly lengthen the lifespan of the game by keeping things fresh from new mod-injected content, again motivated by the hope that this causes more sales and gains the game/series more acclaim (which causes more sales next installment).

And why is the lifespan increased? Because gamers can tweak the game to make it more enjoyable and add new content if they didn't like it in the first place. That increases longevity because players are happier with the way their personal game is working.

I don't know, perhaps we should just agree to disagree, but modding has always been a function of making individual players happy. The more people you satisfy, the more games you sell. And you can make a greater number of individuals happy by allowing easy access to game files so they can change things up every now and then.

Precisely right - they both are, because they fundamentally change how the game plays. More on this below - "cheating" is NOT what I'm getting at.

Ok, that's a clearer way of putting it.

It's ideas like this that are exactly why I have commented as I have, Smith. You've actually endorsed making most things operate at the same per-year rate, but allowing units to be recruited 4 times faster than usual, and for everything in game to move 4 times further than usual in a given amount of time (not to mention that religious conversion which no one mentioned will happen at a per-year rate 4 times faster than it used to).

Geez oh Pete, they are just suggestions! There seems to be some like minded people here that want to extend the game, and I was suggesting some things that could be done to do that. These same people discussing it could easily modify the movement rates, conversion rates, etc. if they wanted to, I was just suggesting that they stay the same.

I don't care at all what you do to your game honestly - I have no personal stake in that. What I do have, though, is a concern about people using a mod like this and then contributing to discussions on this forum. Any one of those 3 changes I just mentioned is enough to make any discussions about gameplay with users of this mod entirely worthless. My comments have not been motivated by some overdeveloped sense of what is cheating, but rather by the fact that doing this to the game fundamentally changes it, and people should at least know that if they consistently play the game with this modification, they pretty much can't comment in the regular gameplay threads because they aren't playing the same game anymore.

So some of us can't comment on gameplay if we use a mod?

Look, there will always be some players who aren't as "advanced" in game mechanics departments as others, but I think the people that understand how the game works are usually best qualified to comment on how the game is played. The modders on these forums probably use their own mods constantly, and I'd trust some of their advice on the game more than others. Not to mention that modding something like the turns/year has nothing to do at all with the vast majority of other aspects to the game, like, say, the entire battle system.

I've played the game plenty using vanilla, so I'm no less qualified to discuss gameplay than anyone else here. And, actually, when people use a mod I usually see them preface a comment by saying that they are using a modded game. I don't see any problem with that.

I don't see why there has to be such a purist attitude about generally discussing the game.

So I guess the pertinent point is, do you want this to change the gameplay, or to try to stay as parallel to it as possible? If the case turns out to be the former, I'd request you move your discussion to the modding threads since as I said it would not be sufficiently close to the base game to be discussed alongside it.

If it really irks you that much I wouldn't mind the thread being moved. It's no big deal to me. The general concept of slowing the pace down, though, seems to be of more "general interest" to me since it is in line with RTW, which many of us are used to. But, to each his own.

No hard feelings. I don't want to start a fight or anything.