Shogun 2?

[americancaesar]

Who knows if there will ever be one, but its always been on my mind since Med first came out. Further, inspired by the topic about which TW game is better (hard to say, for me, depends on my mood), what features of the successors to Shogun should be add to this notional Shogun Total War 2 along with new aspects to the game. Heres some I have been thinking about:

1. Loyalty - a big one concerning the politics of feudal Japan. Sometimes even blood ties weren't thick enough to prevent betrayals. Its been a major thing missing from the old STW since I saw it in MTW1.

2. Diplomacy - the basics of diplomacy really haven't advanced much since STW (though I dont have MTW2, so can comment on it from there), but the options have increased, including trade and vassalage. Nice things to add.

3. Traits and Ancillary characters - they liven up the plain men on the broad and perhaps could even put a few more koku in your pocket or heads in a basket.

Things not to add or change...

1. The battle system of STW1 - unless theres something better, it should be brought into the new game as is
2. The micromanagement of settlements - to be fair, there should be two options, one for those who want to manage every castle town and hamlet and one for those of us who prefer to fight and let the invisible hand do the dirty work.
3. Princesses - not needed
4. No fantasy unites PLEASE! - Geishas and battlefield ninjas are enough. No flaming chickens or Jesuits arqubuseiers please.

Thats all I can think of right now.

AC

[Caliburn]

It could be nice.

Somehow I can't imagine fleet system similar to RTW or M2TW in Shogun, though.

Japan should give us quite a few nice chokepoints, which means that the AI would have to improve immensely if RTW/M2TW style system is used (which sounds quite likely).

I don't mind gunpowder.

Diplomacy with the Western countries might add a flavor, but somehow can't see that playing a real part.

One thing I don't miss are the huge bonuses generals would give on the battlefield.

[caravel]

No flaming chickens

I can picture the tech tree now, you will Upgrade to the famous Horse Dojo and think to yourself, well now I can train Yari Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry, the Legendary Horse Dojo will surely give me an even better cavalry type? Then when the thing is built you'll rush in there eagerly and see that you can now train.... Flaming Chickens! Does that sound familiar to you at all?

[Veho Nex]

I can picture the tech tree now, you will Upgrade to the famous Horse Dojo and think to yourself, well now I can train Yari Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry, the Legendary Horse Dojo will surely give me an even better cavalry type? Then when the thing is built you'll rush in there eagerly and see that you can now train.... Flaming Chickens! Does that sound familiar to you at all?

Fear my flaming chickens but a good addition would be the dutch trade fortresses and another good thing would be if you ambush an enemy army it becomes slightly easier with BF Ninja's shoot class is starting and teachers mad bye

[Bijo]

@americancaesar
I wouldn't mind seeing a Shogun 2 arise, more or less the way you proposed in the first post.

The graphics should basically stay as they are now like in M2TW, though. I mean the same kind of quality and such :)

[caravel]

When you upgrade to the Legendary Sword Dojo you'd get Naked Screaming Geisha Fanatics... Oh well one can only dream...

Not that I'm advocating fantasy units or anything!

[Andres]

When you upgrade to the Legendary Sword Dojo you'd get Naked Screaming Geisha Fanatics... Oh well one can only dream...

Not that I'm advocating fantasy units or anything!

The avatar and the username might have changed, but the sense of humor is still the same

[Puzz3D]

I can hardly wait: Shogun 2 Arcade War.

[caravel]

Yes it's: up, down, down, down, up, left, left left, fire to execute the leaping spinning hair pin throw... armour piercing of course. You will know you've pulled it off if the screen suddenly goes black and thunderclouds and lightning appear overhead, she will leap through the air and utter the legendary "TATISMUKIMSUMIFANTASIUNITOMUKOOTOMOISUKUUUUGAH!!!!" and unleash the special move. If you fail to pull it off then you will scream, and wail in anguish, pull at your hair, curse loudly, eat half of your keyboard, tear off your clothes and disappear into the wilderness for several days.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If they do it, they should remove a bunch of the economic and diplomatic options. A war that will be fought in 5-10 years shouldn't be decided by such things.

The generals traits would be really nice. It was one of the features I looked forward to most in mtw. Unfortunatly I don't think I ever got one in battle, you hardly ever seemed to fight and you had bunches of good generals anyway. Not like shogun where I would take my rank 3 daimyo and fight with him until he was rank 6.

[caravel]

If they do it, they should remove a bunch of the economic and diplomatic options. A war that will be fought in 5-10 years shouldn't be decided by such things.

The generals traits would be really nice. It was one of the features I looked forward to most in mtw. Unfortunatly I don't think I ever got one in battle, you hardly ever seemed to fight and you had bunches of good generals anyway. Not like shogun where I would take my rank 3 daimyo and fight with him until he was rank 6.

The only traits you seemed to get in battle in MTW were the coward line of vices and the skilled attacker/defender line. Others such as chivalrous, famously brave, etc etc seem to appear at random iny my experience. The traits system in RTW seems to work better, though some of the traits themselves are very generic. I'm not a long term RTW player so maybe I haven't encountered all of the traits yet, but I have found that there are many that simply give +1 influence or +1 management, or +1 command of the general and don't seem to effect his unit in terms of valour. The retinues have similar effects. The system is there but, as ever, it's simply not being used correctly.

[César Victor]

I'd love it to revert to the old 4 season turn thingmajig. Perhaps the entire eastern kingdoms could be added; the Chinese dynastys, the Mongols etc. Meh. I'd like to see the old videos back too, like the ninja assassination ones.

[Csargo]

If there was a S2TW to come out I think that it would probably be all of Eastern Asia. Of course that would be years away...

[Caliburn]

Not sure if SE Asia would interest people so much that CA would make a game out of it... Then again, kung fu movies are quite popular. But I don't honestly believe that Shogun II is too realistic an option, as I can't see it selling as much as the bloody Roman times or romantic Medieval times.

They'll just make 2500 A.D. - Total War (get your hands off me you dirty ape) or something next. Or colonization (how much slavery they'd include is hard to tell - population rates, slave riots, trade, moral vs. political play... intriguing, but I digress).

It's sad - Shogun would be too large a project for an expansion, and out of any viable European theme. Maybe we could have Chinese single man units clothed in black-and-yellow tights vs. a kensai with Tomisaburo Wakayama's face... And of course the Chinese repeating crossbow.

[Suraknar]

Well,

I do long for a Shogun2, however, with a broader view, including other parts of Asia is a must.

Maybe an AsiaTW with Shogun Expansion, the other side of the world equivalents of MTW, and VI expansions.

[Veho Nex]

Well,

I do long for a Shogun2, however, with a broader view, including other parts of Asia is a must.

Maybe an AsiaTW with Shogun Expansion, the other side of the world equivalents of MTW, and VI expansions.

Maybe they should team up with the folks from Dynasty Warriors and if they did japan might be an expansion or a 1 territory thing

[TheLastSerenade666]

Yes, I must agree, a Shogun 2 would be very interesting, we can only hope I guess. Just hope all the flaws with the first few Shogun games dont follow it.

[Suraknar]

You know, it seems like the Ran No Jidai mod is close to release, and from what I saw the modders there did some extraordinary work already...

So we may get to play a Shogun2 quite soon after all :)

[americancaesar]

Indeed, I cant wait for that release.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hi Suraknar,

So we may get to play a Shogun2 quite soon after all :)

If you have M:TW you can play a, sort of, Shogun II straight away! There is a highly popular modification called Samurai Warlords which is a port of the original Shogun game to the greatly improved Medieval engine. Hope this helps you, cheers!

[moomo]

Hot thread!
Shogun 2?!! SURE!

Shogun 2 is a must.

I saw an interesting thing: it is a post, somewhere around, dated a few months before the release of MTW2, talking about how interesting it would be to have ladders to climb the walls, siege towers and other siege equipment. I don't know how this worked, but all that can be seen in MTW2. So, one way or another, there is some good feedback online.

I think not only is nice to tell whether you want STW2 (it's not worth to tell you don't want it) but also to explain what new features should be inserted and what old ones should remain, how do you expect the game to appear and so on.

I'd see:

1. Keep the clean, simple, japan style controls on the battle and map desktop. Go japan style. Not too big not too small, only what you need. Create a few (3 I'd say) option sets: minimum, normal, full controls (m&b = map and battle).

2. And from 1: Let us choose among 3-4 modes to play the game as battle and map strategy (independent - one setting for the map and another for the battle): rudimentary, normal, rich, complex controls in the battle and map. This is about complexity of actions requierd from the player.

3. In fact, I think they should first produce a Shogun remake cause it was so cool, upgrading tehnicaly, but keeping the game as close as possible to the first version. And only after that thinking about a new S2 game. But I think this is not realistic (2 versions) cause no one (at CA) announced their intentions to go back and even start thinking about S2.

4. Not too many fancy new units, stick to the old game, make it 3D, good grapfics. Or, create a historically accurate set of units, like in S1 (keep them as they are and maybe include some historically relevant type of units) and a freestyle alternative set of units. Allow the mix if the player wants to.

5 Put some really unic fight scenes in it. Let the samurai masters of the sword impress us. Outclass the two steps forward, two steps back fight dance of the old S. More realistic fighting situations and scenes (You may say I go with the battles.)

6. So I'd say more freedom to the players, give them the opportunity to create their own highly distinct enviroment within the game. Let them "touch" the worlds they never lived in but upon whom's magic and appeal you created your game concept.

7 Create a camera mode that enables every angle. Remove the slope as you can see it in M2. Allow the camera to look straight down and at any angle (360x360 degrees at all hights).

8. This is getting crazy: Allow the player to enter into the skin of his daimyo/general and fight on the battlefield. Give bonuses for this action and penalties if killed. So, as the deployment of the general's hatamoto to really decide the faith the battle give bonus to all troops and especially the general's. If the player its killed in the "hatamoto mode" finish off his campaign or make him suffer definitive defeat. Make this mode available also for Multiplayer internet.
It's not so crazy since it was done in an old game, "Dungeon keepers" or something like that. There it made no big difference but here it can do a lot.

9. Allow the Shogun to move his army into the continent or even move him to Europe and meet the units from M2...! You can find an imaginary explanation scenario. The problem with conquering the mainland Asia is the sensibility of the Koreans and Chinese. If you stumble upon that let Shogun fight Europe. How about, after a few more games in the series a unified, all in one, (Medieval) World Total War. In fact, I think you should take that very seriously because this is where it leads.
And by the way, Mike Simpson, if you want this to go on "forever" I can be of help with some ideas...at least until I get old or something else... Maybe ideas is not what you're lacking.

10. Oh, yeah! Optional movies, poems, theatre, tea, sword, bow, riding practice to upgrade your generals (this can be 11.), optional everything.

Arguments:
1. There are many Japan/Shogun TW funs. Samurai period has a lot of potential and it will never get depleted. Japan has it's appeal upon the rest of the world as well as on natives but in different manners. The same goes with europe.
2. ShogunTW made the big impact and won the market.
3. Those people that loved it made interesting modes and improvements and know the game inside very well. Reach out for them. Make them work along you.

Ohh! And keep on selling us dreams! We just love them, as long as they hide the real world from us. You're good at it and getting better.



To be continued!

[Veho Nex]

I think that you should have a battle map screen before each battle and you have to talk to all your commanders and then set it up and say how they should attack. Also going into your general and fighting as him = not good idea(it would turn into another hack and slash game[which almost no true shogun player wants]) but i've always thought of including the invasions of korea and china good points to be added to Shogun total war. also if when ever you sent out an order a runner will appear and try and reach him your one of your units waves a flag or something. also if your comander doesn't think it's right to send all your cav into a bunch of pointy sticks(which isn't the smart thing) then he can send a notice back to you saying he won't do it. Or if you can assasinate an enemy general during battle with some battle feild ninja's or something

[Sjakihata]

blah

Hey! You stole my avatar!

Yes, a shogun 2 only with Japan, no boats and good ol'e samurais would be nice. Although, if they ever release a shoggy 2 it probably wouldnt be worth playing.

[Suraknar]

Nice ideas moomo,

Getting in to Damyo skin does not sound very appealing to me...

Could be interesting...but if it turns it in to a hack n slash game....donno..I am a skeptic of that.

On the other hand, it could have more develloped Diplomacy...and "Honor Rating"...if a general's rating or even the damyo's go down too much...sepuku time.

As for sensitivity...well its Alternate History only starting from real historical setting...if we have slavery in all the others, I see no reason to make a fuss about China or Korea invading Japan and vice versa...its a game...

Althought I know this view may not be asian, but if I was asian and people wanted a game about my country's history I would feel honored. It may even help out in ironing sensitivities.

In any case, I would love to be able to try out the possibilities. Be able to put Sun Tzu and Bushido in to practice throught a Total War Interface.

[Veho Nex]

Be able to put Sun Tzu and Bushido in to practice throught a Total War Interface.

Ouch i think the armies of europe have something coming to them

[Dexter]

Ran no Jidai - waiting for the release
Shogun - still start up the game from time to time ( it`s always the 1th game to be installed on the pc )

Would like to play whit improved engine the old Shogun.
Ok have diplomacy, and girls you can marry to your general, or to forge "better" alliances ...
A must would be the 4 turn 1 year, castles, many samurai, teppo, and so on ..

[moomo]

Hello!
Sorry for waiting so long before answering. I wanted too see some feedback and I think it came.

In seems my "hatomoto mode" is not well received. Several positions against it from the very begining.
Creative Assembly officials (only saw Mike Simpson from "Eras") talk about having 2 games in one with since the begining of the series, although they consider Shogun strategy map a sort of link between battles, which I think was not just that, but a fair "game in itself".
With the "Hatamoto mode", if they do it, the'll have 3 in 1. And will enlarge and enrich the game experience of a splendid game - one of their success ingredients being to make it as real as it can be done... Of course it should be a option and not an obligation to go as yourself in the battlefield and "hack and slash" as in other games. It is known that many battles were lost or won after the personal engagement of the generals in the battle. Thus it would be historically relevant to have a "hm" = hatamoto mode in the Total War game.
In M2 I got to the average man height and I tell you from above you don't see nothing, and, in fact, you loose the sense of battle. You can see from such a height in M2 that you kind of loose contact with the struggle of your man, and the general that does that is more likely to loose battles.

I'm not a persuader of noone into buying my idea or enjoying it. CA also alleged that they have many ideas that can't simply get into a game and are left for the next to come. They don't lack brilliant ideas, and mine is probably not, considering the first reactions.

To jkarinen:
Your ideas about planning the battle with your commanders and their mind independence are very interesting and also historically correct.
Korea and China you say - go. I say they might meet the mongols...after that...again. Also, couriers you say - interesting again.

To Sjakihata:
I didn't intended to "stole" your avatar and saw it happened after a while. Anyway I feel like dropping it. How did you choused it? It's a strange one: The only european figure in the STW section of avatars.

Boats must be there as they are in reality. You have water and people, you must have boats.

I hope they will produce a worthy Shogun 2. And they will with all the improvements, evolution and revolutions of their skills and tools available. I am impressed by medieval Japan and warrior spirit developed in those special conditions. This is why I want to see new ways of depicting that, worthy of the first Shogun, new and remarkable in their own right. I'd play whatever comes out anyhow.

I don't remember any "blah" in my post. If you think it's blah-bla tell me.

To Suraknar:
Thanks.
I think I explained about the hatamoto mode in the beginning. There was never in my intention to ask for the game to turn into something like hack and slash, but on the other side, this is what people do on the battlefields. As a general who sends his man into "pointy sticks (which isn't the smart thing)" - see jkarinen post - you must get yourself
"dirty" from time to time.
The presence of the general near or behind the troop is boniffied in the original Shogun I read. His personal skills of "h&s" type must also make a difference. I see the bravery of the general/player coming in act here, his overall comprehension of the situation, and finally the will to die with honour as the samurai way of life required.
TW might develop into a all around the world medieval war. In 10 years maybe.
Sun Tzu's Art of war was actually inserted into the game. The AI settings resides greatly on that. They've said that they could use many of Sun Tzu's assertion as rules for the AI.
You can see less Bushido beside the Kensai and, maybe, warrior monks special fighting skills. In what degree are you interested in Bushido? As for myself I don't mind visiting a real sword dojo and practicing japan martial arts, especially sword related. Kendo will do for me but I never got the chance. They say tho sword of ones samurai it's ones soul. And from an old zen collection: Someone meditating was attacked by surprise from behind. He parried calmly and continued his meditation. Asked how he could do that he answered that the attacker firstly moved his mind. Hence the connection between the sword and soul of the samurai (the mind as intermediary term).


Almost everyone agrees on that: Korea and/or China expansions possibilities within ShogunTW 2 are welcomed. After firmly ruling the country, Toyotomi Hyideioshi organized the invasion of Korea. Unsuccessfully and with very heavy loses. Korea and China were partners in defending. It also fits the time scene: After unifying Japan where Shogun ends.

To Dexter:
Recently my interest for Ran no Jidai emerged and now I also wait this mode. A time ago I was so passionate with Shogun that I thought nothing will be able to improve it and it will be a solitary games. After my disappointment with Medieval as scene setting (being european myself !?) I think Shogun 2 it's a duty of honour for CA. Since coming to this forum and being able to understand the possibilities of game improving available to the community I changed to a more open approach. I think now we can advance good ideas and be able to even see them in the game.
A game by season seems more realistic then the one year turn campaign. But there area lot's of things to be taken into account here...


A special line to the olympians from Total War.

Make a game that can be fought in internet multiplyer as a campaign. In game battles included and improved. The community, after finishing the juice from the battles, tried hard to make a multiplayer playable version of the campaign game. Their considerable struggle should not be overlooked.
Also here, allow the Ip to Ip connection for Multiplayer. And don't block the possibility to host on different machines for example. Allow clans to make their own servers, authorize whichever you consider. (Steal from American's Army, Counterstrike and such way of developing a community). Tackle lagg problems...

A few more posts as long as these two and I can take my degree in TW, or Shogun at least.

Cheers to you all! Enjoy! Discover valour and honour!

[Dexter]

wow i think you r fascinated by the shogun era ... like me
have you read the art of war ? watched movies ? made research about the samurai ? i did ..
it would be great to have shogun 2 .. personally i would like 54 turns per year .. but wit limited recruitment possibility .. say depending on the samurai in your region and your koku .. this would mean you would have to fight 10 15 battles to control a region ... a more realistic approach .. and it would mean loosing 500 of your 1000 samurai in the army would be a hard blow as you could not immediately replace them ... and the warlord leading the clan would have to make sometimes difficult desicions, as when to engage and how much is he willing to risk to take what is his neighbors ... many more "stupid" ideas pop up in my head :P
Of course i realize this is not for everyone .. as this kind if playing would take months to finish a game ... but it would represent the 150 years of the country at war as a huge struggle for dominance ... say you start the classical way in 1530 and end the game in 1615 - a total of 4590 turns - this would be still weary difficult as you would have all the 160 clans (if i remember correctly there were aprox 160), meaning 159 rivals .. of course as in real life you could make alliances, protect a weaker clan and finally absorb them in to yours ... as Tokugawa made whit the remnants of the Imagawa ( did you know Tokugawa was a hostage of Imagawa ? ).
This way adding all medium and large settlement and castles/forts in medieval japan you would sweat blood to gain dominance. An in a single year (54 turns) a clan led by a fool would disappear ... this way a year would mean making assessment how much you spend in 54 turns as you only get koku once or twice a year from harvest. And dont forget the japanese did advance in warfare as the used better made armor, had seen the power of the teppo ( oda made good use of it ) and there were even religious changes ...

can write pages on this topic .. but i think it would not have a huge success on the market .. as in our tome players r not really interested in deep playing stile games .. i guess i can dream right ?
Today games r made for 1 thing ... profit

[moomo]

Dexter,

It's very pleasing and reinforcing to know there are other Japan/samurai history deep searchers.

I agree with you: what "veterans" expect from Shogun 2 is a "deep play". I agree with it 100%, although what we expect individually from the next game may be quit different. I think Creative Assembly should give us this possibility to go further while allowing new comers to take only what they want.

Your way of seeing the campaign game, wow, you want deep to the bottom game. The number of troops you can produce was already limited by available koku, buildings existence and upgrades, and it worked very realistic. I think you also felt desperation when after a major breakthrough, conquering 2/3 important provinces, your depleted armies couldn't hold up the counter atack or rebelling forces, because you couldn't produce new ones faster.

Maybe you know that Sun-Tzu was in fact chinese and lived in a different era. At least this is my unrefreshed residual data. And I haven't read his Art of war...
I've enjoyed every movie about the era, starting The 7 samurai which made a big impact on me as a child, and every other Kurosawa historical movie, and ending with the splendid "The Last samurai".

I agree 4 turns a year, once a year revenue. This is medieval life, by seasons.
I warmly suggest you let your ideas know inhere. Maybe the right persons will watch... Anyway I'd enjoy it.

Did you know that japanese take the matters more seriously and they re/enact great battles of the past at the exact location in modern times, changing of course the real swords and weapons with sticks. I saw them and they really struggled.

I think for CA Shogun 2 must be taken as a tribute to the game that made the famous and to the people that are still nostalgic about it. they will get their profit alright. Even more then they expect.

Keep on dreaming Dexter, dreams are sometimes our very bones.

[Veho Nex]

We should all sign a petition and send it to CA hahahaha wouldnt that be cool