Is this much different from going on jihad?

[Pannonian]

In the RTR forums, there is a thread asking, "Would you join your countrys army?". One of the posters, someone living in London, replied "I wont join the british army but i will join the IDF (Israeli defence force) when i make Aliya (Going up - immergrating) to Israel".

I'm wondering, what are the ethics of someone, presumably currently a British citizen, proclaiming his loyalty to another country, with the stated aim of joining that other country's military in the future? How should the British government view this? How should the average British citizen view this?

[rory_20_uk]

As a British subject I've no problems with that. He is leaving to take part in the armed forces of another soverign nation. He is not leaving to join a guerilla / terrorist organisation.

Assuming that he is not disloyal to the UK it doesn't worry me. There are many times I've said "if you don't like it here, leave". At least he's doing that.

[Pannonian]

As a British subject I've no problems with that. He is leaving to take part in the armed forces of another soverign nation. He is not leaving to join a guerilla / terrorist organisation.

Assuming that he is not disloyal to the UK it doesn't worry me. There are many times I've said "if you don't like it here, leave". At least he's doing that.

Let's hope our armed forces never get involved in a peacekeeping mission in that region that will result in him firing on them.

[Marshal Murat]

I would think it's his choice. Unless Israel is threatening London in some way, shape, or form, it okay.

[Lord Winter]

There is a difference, Israel is at least as civil as possible in war and doesnt target or take cover by civilians. To me it seems the same as some one immigrating to another country and then joining there military for the faster citizenship track.

[rory_20_uk]

To compare joining the IDF to joining a Jihad would only be applicable if there were no Muslim states with armies. I'd feel the same if a Muslim joined the Egyptian army, or the Syrian army, or the Iranian Army.

Of course, if peacekeepers were required or war was declared his nationality would have no bearing whatsoever. He chose to wear the (then) enemy's fatigues and he can therefore die in them.

[Papewaio]

Of course, if peacekeepers were required or war was declared his nationality would have no bearing whatsoever. He chose to wear the (then) enemy's fatigues and he can therefore die in them.

Or get wounded and then patched up by us.

=][=

Saying a Jihad (I assume the modern terrorist version) is equivalent of joining the army of a democratic nation... is the same as saying terrorists are equal to soldiers. That IMDHO is rather disgusting.

In general if someone wants to go to another country that is a nominal ally and join its army it is not an issue. Plenty of commonwealth armies have soldiers who are from other commonwealth nations. I know of several people who have served in the IDF and then came back to Australia to do university and work. I even know one who served in the IDF and then the Australian Army.

From what I have seen, Israel gets treated like a defacto Commonwealth nation so it isn't an issue in Australia.

I also have worked with people who were raised in Australia and went back to Turkey to do as they perceived their duty. I also know Taiwanese who are in the same situation.

[Pannonian]

Or get wounded and then patched up by us.

=][=

Saying a Jihad (I assume the modern terrorist version) is equivalent of joining the army of a democratic nation... is the same as saying terrorists are equal to soldiers. That IMDHO is rather disgusting.

In general if someone wants to go to another country that is a nominal ally and join its army it is not an issue. Plenty of commonwealth armies have soldiers who are from other commonwealth nations. I know of several people who have served in the IDF and then came back to Australia to do university and work. I even know one who served in the IDF and then the Australian Army.

From what I have seen, Israel gets treated like a defacto Commonwealth nation so it isn't an issue in Australia.

I also have worked with people who were raised in Australia and went back to Turkey to do as they perceived their duty. I also know Taiwanese who are in the same situation.

Have those armed forces ever shot Australian citizens, not by accident, then tried to cover up the incident? The IDF has done so to British citizens, most recently a chap who was filming a documentary about the troubles there.

[Pannonian]

There is a difference, Israel is at least as civil as possible in war and doesnt target or take cover by civilians. To me it seems the same as some one immigrating to another country and then joining there military for the faster citizenship track.

Shouldn't one be loyal to the country one is a citizen of, at least until one moves to that other country? Eg. what would your view be of an American kid who looks forward to the day when he's old enough to move to Iran to join the Iranian military?

[Lord Winter]

Shouldn't one be loyal to the country one is a citizen of, at least until one moves to that other country? Eg. what would your view be of an American kid who looks forward to the day when he's old enough to move to Iran to join the Iranian military?

I agree with Rory here. As long as we're not at war with Iran the U.S. shouldn't stop him from a humen rights standpoint. If he wants to move to a different country and give up his american citizenship the government shouldn't stop him (unless if its war time). However at this point, if your fighting for another country you should at least give up your citizenship.
Besides nobody has a choice about which country they are born into. Immegrating and becoming a citizen of said country even joining that said countries army should be legal.

Counter question just because you are born into a certain country, does that require a blind loyalty?

[Pannonian]

I agree with Rory here. As long as we're not at war with Iran the U.S. shouldn't stop him from a humen rights standpoint. If he wants to move to a different country and give up his american citizenship the government shouldn't stop him (unless if its war time). However at this point, if your fighting for another country you should at least give up your citizenship.
Besides nobody has a choice about which country they are born into. Immegrating and becoming a citizen of said country even joining that said countries army should be legal.

Counter question just because you are born into a certain country, does that require a blind loyalty?

While you still live there, yes. Not to the extent that you have to accept the culture, religion, government policies, etc. of that country. But certainly to the extent that the country's military has first dibs on you if you are of that bent. There's nothing to stop him from moving abroad and joining another country's military while he's there, but if he should ever fire on a British soldier or citizen, we should demand he be handed over to be tried for treason.

[Incongruous]

There is a difference, Israel is at least as civil as possible in war and doesnt target or take cover by civilians.

Oh, really?

Oh that's right, as an army under the control of a recognized state, which means that the civilians it kills can be claimed as collateral.

Just like that old woman, who received a bullet through her head, compliments of Isreals occupation and state terrorism.

Perhaps, you may want to read more on the subject, before you use it so freely.

[scotchedpommes]

In terms of the opinion of the British citizen, I would think reaction could depend
significantly on the individual's view of the IDF. Perhaps some view this kind of
action as taking up a worthy 'cause' in the same manner as a Muslim might view
joining forces which seek to fight a Jihad. Or a worthy cause to take up precisely
because they perceive the enemy of the IDF to be those same Jihad fighters.

In that sense, I feel I can empathise in some way, but I cannot say I view them
in much a different light to the Jihad fighter who might go to the Middle East to
kill Israelis.

Couldn't see the British government attempting to stop this in any way, as to
whether they should [assuming they were ever in a position to do so], I think
so, yes.

[Adrian II]

I'm wondering, what are the ethics of someone, presumably currently a British citizen, proclaiming his loyalty to another country, with the stated aim of joining that other country's military in the future?

British army conscription ended in 1960, no? Hence this guy is not obliged to serve in Britain. If he emigrates to Israel (i.e. becomes an Israeli citizen) he will have to do his military service there under present Israeli law. So bloody what?

I have to wonder about the ethics of someone who equates military service in a democracy to jihad. If this guy emigrated to the U.S. and joined the army there, no one would batter an eyelid, raise 'ethical' issues or mention the word 'crusade'.

[Pannonian]

British army conscription ended in 1960, no? Hence this guy is not obliged to serve in Britain. If he emigrates to Israel (i.e. becomes an Israeli citizen) he will have to do his military service there under present Israeli law. So bloody what?

I have to wonder about the ethics of someone who equates military service in a democracy to jihad. If this guy emigrated to the U.S. and joined the army there, no one would batter an eyelid, raise 'ethical' issues or mention the word 'crusade'.

Note what he calls the emigration - "Aliya", with its cultural and religious implications. In other RTR posts he's also said that he's looking forward to joining the IDF so he can fight the Arabs. If you cast your mind back, or read the Org post I linked to, you'll also see that he has sympathies that even the Israeli government would consider extreme.

[Adrian II]

In other RTR posts he's also said that he's looking forward to joining the IDF so he can fight the Arabs.

As long as he fights Arab soldiers who wage war on Israel, there is nothing wrong with that. I haven't seen his other posts and I won't bother. But if he wants to kill Arabs for the heck of it, he is an idiot and I hope the IDF put him on latrine duty for three years. BTW: If he were Haredi and refused to fight for his country, I think they should dump him in it.