Re: The Multiplayer Sticky

[Monarch]

Well I've not been posting on the mp forums because it seems I can't express an anti-"rome and m2 suck, stw rules all" opinion without getting warned, but the sticky I just saw is ridiculous and TBH just shows the topic creator doesn't understand the context at all.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=80293

Thats the thread.

The quote comes from:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=78597

Note how all replies to the thread were joking and everyone understand YM is just a charismatic guy. I quoted it in my sig because it truly made me lol, I found it funny. Other people quote others in their signatures. Why should I do not be allowed to do the same.

Please also note how despite this big announcement, the moderator fails to even see where the quote has came from (since s/he hasn't even posted in the thread itself), and thus totally fails to grasp the context.

I'm sorry but what sort of modding is it that you say "this sort of stuff is absolutely not tolerable"...but not even know where the quotes from and to not say something in the thread.

Furthermore YM posted that quote one whole month before the mod even said anthing, I mean was this big announcement just because s/he was bored or what.

I would also like to add the quote was removed from my signature and the rest of the code the mod screwed up and just left without even PMing me saying "I'm not sure how to fix it, apologies"...they just carried on as normal which I find rude.

To close, I want to point out if the quote would have been another one of YM's quotes such as:

Noob A new player to the game who lacks the skill and knowledge of an experienced player. Noob is a term that is not defined by time, but by skill. A player who has been playing the game for a long time can still be a noob.

Then I'm almost positive nothing would have came from it, its purely because the vets don't like it that theres actually some new playeras of mp of the org who arn't still playing on their commodore 64s. The mp section stinks of anti-m2 players. Allowing us to elect AMs was a good step, however you should have done the same with the actually mod position because someone from the mp community would have looked at that thread, understood the context, has a laugh, and moved on.

[Stig]

I agree, the MTW2 MP forum needs a MP player to mod it. It doesn't matter who it is, but it needs to be someone from the community, not just someone who can mod a forum very well, most of the time these people don't understand the MP "world".

[Ser Clegane]

not just someone who can mod a forum very well, most of the time these people don't understand the MP "world".

While I can certainly understand where you are coming from, having someone who is fully involved in the MP-community moderate the MP-forum also has its downsides.

Looking at some of the current thread (and a lot of discussions I have seen in the past years) it is rather obvious that there are a lot of old and new rivalries within the MP-community that easily get over the line and become very personal - as a Backroom moderator my impression is that with regard to this the MP-forum even surpasses the Backroom.
Under these circumstances it is much easier for somebody who is not that heavily involved to stay neutral.

the moderator fails to even see where the quote has came from (since s/he hasn't even posted in the thread itself), and thus totally fails to grasp the context.

The problem is that, by putting it into your sig, you actively removed the context. Just because a couple of people know the context does not mean that everybody does, turning your sig into a statement that can be (and by some people is) considered to be inflammatory - which does not seem to far-fetched, taking into account some exchanges in the MP-forum.

I would also like to add the quote was removed from my signature and the rest of the code the mod screwed up and just left without even PMing me saying "I'm not sure how to fix it, apologies"...they just carried on as normal which I find rude.

IIRC you were given the option and the time to remove the quote from the sig yourself and explicitly refused to do so - and now you expect an apology because the staff member who then had to remove part of the sig, did not do it with enough care?
Interesting...

[guyfawkes5]

Looking at some of the current thread (and a lot of discussions I have seen in the past years) it is rather obvious that there are a lot of old and new rivalries within the MP-community that easily get over the line and become very personal - as a Backroom moderator my impression is that with regard to this the MP-forum even surpasses the Backroom.

I would say that the multiplayer community by it's very nature is more competitive and thus should be given different treatment to the other forums. I'm not saying all-out flame wars should be allowed, I'm just saying that perhaps the community should be given more a free reign seeing as rivalries form a great part of the multiplayer aspect of Total War.

Under these circumstances it is much easier for somebody who is not that heavily involved to stay neutral.

To be fair I think Stig meant that impartial members of the multiplayer community would moderate the forums better than an 'outsider' who doesn't really understand the context or relationships things are said in. Hence you get annoying situations like in the thread below this one where I was 'warned' for using names like 'Stigglet' or 'Stiggles' to address Stig; the moderators did not ask the posters in question, just instantly assumed the worse and went overboard. Such a situation would not have happened with a multiplayer moderator who was actually aware of who was who.

If what you say is true, why are police recruited from the local area instead of somewhere at the other side of the country where they can be 'impartial' from the local squabbles? It's because the best moderator of any heated situation is someone who knows what the people involved are like, and can use their personal knowledge and experience with the people concerned to resolve the situation in the best possible manner.

The problem is that, by putting it into your sig, you actively removed the context. Just because a couple of people know the context does not mean that everybody does, turning your sig into a statement that can be (and by some people is) considered to be inflammatory - which does not seem to far-fetched, taking into account some exchanges in the MP-forum.

In which case any signature that is aimed at a 'general audience' should be removed, seeing as it could possibly be construed as offensive. Thus even innocuous statements from famous philosophers referring to 'foolish men' or another derogatory phrase should be scrapped too, seeing as the viewer could possibly be offended when he thinks the given phrase refers to himself.

My point is that if you start censoring phrases referring to no-one in particular (I don't think any of the STW 'veteran' community would associate that statement with him/herself, and your statement about them 'not knowing the context' seems contradictory given that the statement is about people who form the core of the community and thus would be in the best position to know its context given their communal standing) because their lack of aiming/context may offend someone, this level of censorship of protectionism would very quickly chase away the already reduced multiplayer community in my opinion.

[Stig]

While I can certainly understand where you are coming from, having someone who is fully involved in the MP-community moderate the MP-forum also has its downsides.

I know, but I believe the idea was that the forum would have 2 Assistant Mods. They would then contact Rob, who would then take steps (as he had the powers to close threads). Since we only have 1 Assistant Mod now (the other already resigned), and this AM isn't the most active one, this isn't really working atm.

[Martok]

Note how all replies to the thread were joking and everyone understand YM is just a charismatic guy. I quoted it in my sig because it truly made me lol, I found it funny. Other people quote others in their signatures. Why should I do not be allowed to do the same.

Okay, time to stick my neck out and thrown in my two cents worth:

I personally was rather offended by that quote. Not a lot, but I was more than a little miffed. And while I won't claim to speak for anyone else, I'd be surprised if I was the only one. (Most likely no one has bothered to say anything about it until now.)

Now that I've seen the thread from which the quote was taken, I admit I better understand the context. You know what, though? It's still kind of insulting. (Although I *do* understand the sentiment; I won't deny us "old-timers" can be blowhards at times. ) And it's even more offensive when someone uses it as their sig, since then even the context is removed.

If the quote had simply remained in that thread in the M2 multiplayer forum, then it might not have mattered. By putting it in your sig, however, you spread it throughout the rest of the Guild as well, thus exposing it to the forum's general population.....and therefore greatly increasing the likelihood someone is going to be offended by it. There's no way you could have been unaware of that possibility (as I know you to be a reasonably intelligent fellow), so I really don't think you should be that surprised by the consequences.

[t1master]

so the sticky was because of the sig, not the thread ym started? was tito even aware of the thread, or just taking a shot at monarch?

[t1master]

guess i can't edit in this forum..

anyhoo...

why was this totalwarizm not pointed out in the sticky as well?

RPGers Players that have taken on a role playing identity, and use it despite making themselves look like fools. IE: The Wolves are RPGers. HowLwowowlLWlwl.

[Papewaio]

Same rules apply to all the forums with a few exceptions, for example seen in my sig.

I'm competitive, but I don't play MP. Its because my time is in limited bursts of activity so I can't fairly apply myself to a match and not let my allies down by logging off to do real life duties.

Nor do I see being competitive allows one to be rude, a flamer or less of a gentleman. Even if you are going to kill someone you can do it in a polite manner. So I don't see why the MP forums should be allowed anymore leeway then say the Backroom.

We don't see everything and it is up to the individuals to police themselves. In fact a good forum is where the moderators act like traffic cops not the SWAT team. But a good forum is because the patrons self moderate themselves. So gentlemen the obvious answer is to play by the rules and you won't see any moderators aside from them helping you to merge threads and show you where to find information and acting as a patron and discussing issues.

In short:

'Do as you please, please as you do.'

[caravel]

Okay, time to stick my neck out and thrown in my two cents worth:

I personally was rather offended by that quote. Not a lot, but I was more than a little miffed. And while I won't claim to speak for anyone else, I'd be surprised if I was the only one. (Most likely no one has bothered to say anything about it until now.)

Now that I've seen the thread from which the quote was taken, I admit I better understand the context. You know what, though? It's still kind of insulting. (Although I *do* understand the sentiment; I won't deny us "old-timers" can be blowhards at times. ) And it's even more offensive when someone uses it as their sig, since then even the context is removed.

If the quote had simply remained in that thread in the M2 multiplayer forum, then it might not have mattered. By putting it in your sig, however, you spread it throughout the rest of the Guild as well, thus exposing it to the forum's general population.....and therefore greatly increasing the likelihood someone is going to be offended by it. There's no way you could have been unaware of that possibility (as I know you to be a reasonably intelligent fellow), so I really don't think you should be that surprised by the consequences.

I remember reading that thread a while back, I missed it being quoted though. It's not really offensive IMHO, though I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Us miserable old blowhards can usually laugh it off when such things are said, merely shaking our sticks and gurning somewhat, while ranting on about fantasy units. Despite all of this I can understand the admin dealing with it in the way they have. Fairness and consitency are important.

[TosaInu]

Hence you get annoying situations like in the thread below this one where I was 'warned' for using names like 'Stigglet' or 'Stiggles' to address Stig; the moderators did not ask the posters in question, just instantly assumed the worse and went overboard. Such a situation would not have happened with a multiplayer moderator who was actually aware of who was who.

It was not a moderator, it was me. An overboard reaction would be a ban. Another overboard reaction would be a guy nailed by the receiver because he made a typo by accident. To mention a case: one typed Kocomoc instead of Kocmoc. Another being a guy arguing and presenting himself to be friendly and respectful. The used honory equivalent of san, is used to address kids though. A hidden snipe, a tactic similar to namecalling or one to push the argument to your position (your postcount is too low/high, your avatar is scary, you are just a kid, I'm a vet, you think you are better because you are a vet, you are a n00b, yadayada).

If you are buddies and have a nice conversation, call each other 'Tos'. However many discussions are not just chats and said topic is a volcano. The MP scene is full of hostilities, many are incidents, some start as a little friction, others are designed by purpose to rile up, sometimes one uses a scapegoat to cover his own blunders and vile and sometimes all these techniques are used and started years ago, which results in very bad feelings, deep rivalries and character assassination. Who can answer: which straw broke the camels back?

I'm around since Winter 2000 (wow: I'm using it myself ), I've seen and heard more than I like. 'But Tos, isn't that not just YOUR opinion?' No, it isn't. I secretly wish it were, than I would be out of here for years. It's hilariously fun to see the back of another camel break. The people stacking the camel, rout on first supposed impact and then resort to back- and blackchat to maximise the blame on others, when the sun doesn't shine bright enough for them though.

Back to the topic:

I don't know what it was in that topic. Maybe just a friendly bit, maybe another case of all the little gripes we had in the past (which by now aren't little anymore). At any rate: the topic wasn't really suited for that, we can do without extra misunderstandings.

There were four posts. I used the Warn button for each four, sent a private 0 pointer and said that the name was Stig, not Stiggles or Stigglet.

After that there was a PM exchange explaining why those private zero pointers were sent. No harm was meant, Stig wasn't offended, so no escalated follow up arguments about this next year

Monarch.

I removed the part from your sig. The tool in the ACP only displays a small window and thus I accidently broke the rest. Sorry.

t1master

RPGers Players that have taken on a role playing identity, and use it despite making themselves look like fools. IE: The Wolves are RPGers. HowLwowowlLWlwl.

Where is this coming from?

[Caerfanan]

Well, if some people are offended by a sig, and you're asked to remove it, just change it.... Why should you care?

My opinion is that in a competitive games, sometimes you can make jokes to the other guy (I don't know if there's an english word for that). And that's actually a good part of the fun!

But not always:

I remember when I was playing Volleyball (real life). With friends, we could say real "insulty" things, because we were acknowledged friends, and we did have a tone of voice that clearly indicated that it was just a game "How comes you have two left arms", "or you should really stop eating this much, obviously you can't jump anymore" sort of things. It was REALLY different when we were playing with total strangers. At that moment, even the slightest "triumphant knowing smile" could get people angry...

And just to illustrate that again, I just read a thread where someone was talking about allies acting weird, like never coming along, or sometimes coming along, but acting stupidly: he took an exemple of him allied with the french, who after coming along in a battle and helping him break a wave of opponents did withdraw without any logical reason. Someone answered something like "do you want a stereotypical joke about french allies?"

Well, had I knew the guy, I wouldn't have felt anything at all. Probably had made a joke about that with him. But I don't know the guy. And I'm French. For a split second I got angry. I'm not anymore (a split second is quite short), but I do know some people who would've run to conclusions and put another log in the fire which had started there (at least in their head)....

I think the same rule apply everywhere: if you're "good minded", you can say it, if someone is shocked by something you write and you do not understand why, you can get explanations, and if you can't work out something with offended guy, well, if this is all about a signature, what the h**l?

Anyway, you have totally the right to feel offended by offended people. Oh me head...

[caravel]

And just to illustrate that again, I just read a thread where someone was talking about allies acting weird, like never coming along, or sometimes coming along, but acting stupidly: he took an exemple of him allied with the french, who after coming along in a battle and helping him break a wave of opponents did withdraw without any logical reason. Someone answered something like "do you want a stereotypical joke about french allies?"

Well, had I knew the guy, I wouldn't have felt anything at all. Probably had made a joke about that with him. But I don't know the guy. And I'm French. For a split second I got angry. I'm not anymore (a split second is quite short), but I do know some people who would've run to conclusions and put another log in the fire which had started there (at least in their head)...

I think that in such cases, it is best to ignore those types of comments, which you did. I don't think the poster intended anything by it, it was just a casual and impulsive observation. Also he used the word "stereotypical" which indicates that he was fully aware that such jokes are just that, and not to be taken seriously.

[Caerfanan]

I think that in such cases, it is best to ignore those types of comments, which you did. I don't think the poster intended anything by it, it was just a casual and impulsive observation. Also he used the word "stereotypical" which indicates that he was fully aware that such jokes are just that, and not to be taken seriously.

I know, and as you said, I did (almost) ignore it. But by simply seing my own very first reaction, i.e. a burst of (instantly calmed down) "what the f***??" anger translated by a "sure, go ahead" post, I can imagine that some people are likely to react strongly to things which appear "innofensive" in the eyes of most others: hence the example. As we are suposedly grown people with enough education to manipulate a computer, a wee bit of discipline should solve all problems without needing to be tasteless: by explaining ourselves for instance and not staying stubbornly on a "I'm the one who's entirely right" position!

EDIT: And yes, I should have paid attention to the "stereotypical" word. You're right! Another problem when one's not speakins in his mother's tongue!

[t1master]

that quote was in the same thread monarch gleaned the vets quote from tosa.

i don't find any of the quotes offensive. infarct, i think they're most funny, my opinion you see.

i only pointed it out for the sake of consistency, not to highlight that the new mod didn't even read it. if one quote from that thread is not sigworthy, than surely it shouldn't be worthy for forum viewing at large, whatever the context. mostly in terms of offending the more sensitive vets among us, who obviously have spent little time in the lobbys, if mere jest and light hearted ribbing causes grief.

[Caerfanan]

that quote was in the same thread monarch gleaned the vets quote from tosa.

i don't find any of the quotes offensive. infarct, i think they're most funny, my opinion you see.

i only pointed it out for the sake of consistency, not to highlight that the new mod didn't even read it. if one quote from that thread is not sigworthy, than surely it shouldn't be worthy for forum viewing at large, whatever the context. mostly in terms of offending the more sensitive vets among us, who obviously have spent little time in the lobbys, if mere jest and light hearted ribbing causes grief.

uuuuh... I wouldn't say necessarily so. sometimes, the context can change the meaning of a sentence. For instance, when someone emphasise something to make people "get the idea", and says precedently that he will emphasise: this will not have the same effect than repeating the emphasised thing alone, in a sig or a quote.

(Edited to make the sentence clear)

[TosaInu]

guess i can't edit in this forum..

anyhoo...

why was this totalwarizm not pointed out in the sticky as well?

So many totalwarizms and other issues weren't pointed out.

A pretty striking difference is that the this quote was not part of a signature (which 'joker' is the first to update his' now?)

A comment (whether it's the 'wells' twisted truth that will hurt but has to be said because weeeeell..and of course I'm not going to fess up about myself..I'm a friendly person but weeelll..he was very bad and did everything wrong, a little pun, a joke, friendly banter...) is taken out of the topic and then put into a signature to scream it from the rooftops. Nada Naya Nada.

Vet - A player that played in the Shogun/MTW days, that feels as though the new group of players (and game) and poor in comparison to the 'good old days.' Vets usually suffer from delirious nostalgia, as well as hype their skills over their actual performance.

In my memory, the Wolves played STW and MTW too and did compare and comment. No further comment for now.

1 this very statement also applied to the Wolves (whether that's realised or not).
2 there's always been commenting and comparing on each game. Critical too. that's not a problem, swearing and personal attacks were. One other reason why topics escalated here and the .NET was created. Didn't everyone jump ship and swim to Freedom Harbour? Yet, another person from a different colour is commenting now, it goes too far I agree, but not more than what we had before, certainly not at first. And now it is a problem for the same people? Where is the consistency?

I've seen anti-mizu attacks too, no comment on fair or not for now, why are those not reported? Where is the consistency?

I know why the Wolves case is explicetely mentioned. The Forum Admin is a mizu, anti-Wolf, biased, inconsistent and evil. Am I right? A supposed inconsistency that's consistently pointed out.

Winter 2003. Wolf-Magyar Khan's account was borrowed without confirmed explicit permission (normally you'ld call this hacking, but that wasn't really the case, whatever it was: disgusting) and used to rile up. Krasturak was the colateral damage, but the real target was another jab at Magyar Khan.

The Forum Admin TosaInu invested hours in tracking down the 'borrower'. His reward for the effort was a jab from Magyar: 'So called 'honorable' people are not jumping on me saying that I did it'. And of course also from other sides, because Tosa lacked fun and was so harsh. Sure, we need another weeks and months of tabloid editions, no further comment for now. Mind you: the account was banned for a direct offense, there was no IP ban, the backdoor was open for a new start.

Another sample? That same period, there was an effort by a part of the MP community, involving Wolves, to make a mod for MTW. A PR problem was discovered (no details for now) and reported to me. One comment would suffice to blow the whole project out of the water, especially as the relation wasn't all that great that time (no further comment for now).

Instead the riled up was calmed and a private e-mail was sent by me to the Wolf responsible for the PR, explaining the problem. A Konnichiwa, a few lines with might and mays and a Ja mata. No namecalling, no attacks, no offence.

The response was a jab, of course: I'm the Nazi, b0rgqueen, biased, a mizu who ... the STW patch, a bookburner, owner of a pitbul, Stalins reincarnation, a horsethief and so on (to make it clear, that was not said in the e-mail, but before, during and after). So it's only natural that I'm the only sensitive person who saw the comment and made an issue (that was mentioned). It was a hard to notice one indeed, not spotted by me though and no further comment for now

But the problem was fixed and the project could continue . Did it ever get anywhere? Or am I shot for nothing? Don't answer, I know.

Swallow and have a cookie Tosa.

Want me to light more lamps over the last 7 years or would that cause too much damage for egos?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Peoples' perceptions can be shaded by their feelings. One usually can't control how they feel, but you can control how you think. Among those that have ill feelings toward one another, rest assured that an ambiguous statement or one made in "jest" will be interpreted in the worst way possible. And with the current clan climate, does anyone doubt it would not be?
I'm not involved in these clans, know only bits & pieces gleaned from posts in this forum. However, I do work in a correctional institution (for the last 23 years), and I'm kind of familiar with the interactions of gangs, sociopaths, and other social misfits. Some people in here need to work on their inter-personal relationship skills. If you don't know what that means, google it, you might learn something useful.

Hence, my ruling on this signature.

[guyfawkes5]

It was not a moderator, it was me. An overboard reaction would be a ban.

Nah mate, an overboard reaction would have been doing anything at all... hence our situation.

To mention a case: one typed Kocomoc instead of Kocmoc. Another being a guy arguing and presenting himself to be friendly and respectful. The used honory equivalent of san, is used to address kids though. A hidden snipe, a tactic similar to namecalling or one to push the argument to your position (your postcount is too low/high, your avatar is scary, you are just a kid, I'm a vet, you think you are better because you are a vet, you are a n00b, yadayada).

*massages forehead*

I think you miss what I'm saying. I know Stig. I address him as a friend. Not in Japanese. Not as a snipe. Not as a pink elephant that has been here a long time (?)... please remove the warnings in my profile that are present for your mistake in perception and not mine.

If you are buddies and have a nice conversation, call each other 'Tos'.

'Tos'? Erm, how about this: I call Stig by his nickname and we pretend this embarassing moderating incident never happened?

Important note to Tosa: the user of Elmarkofear is being referred to as 'Elmo' all over these boards... as you may note 'Elmo' is not his allocated username. I think these flagrant uses of NICKNAME-TWEAKING are poorly-disguised snipes at his character and I feel I must speak up for him. I demand that you edit all references to him in this most callous manner, as you have so protected Stig from my derogitory bashing of his name. Thank you.

[TosaInu]

Not in Japanese.

Did I say you did? No I didn't. I listed samples of snipes in the past. Little things, until it's enough.

[guyfawkes5]

Did I say you did? No I didn't. I listed samples of snipes in the past. Little things, until it's enough.

Ah, but did I say you said I did? You also made no reference to pink elephants but I still mentioned that as an example.

Although I'm glad I broke you down sufficently for you not to engage me anymore and just quote one sentence in a percieved wrong. Now please remove the unwarranted warnings that are staining my good character.

[TosaInu]

Ah, but did I say you said I did?

I think you miss what I'm saying. I know Stig. I address him as a friend. Not in Japanese.

You also made no reference to pink elephants but I still mentioned that as an example.

wow: I'm using it myself

A little pun directed at myself, someone has to do it.

Although I'm glad I broke you down sufficently for you not to engage me anymore and just quote one sentence in a percieved wrong.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Now please remove the unwarranted warnings that are staining my good character.

They'll fade off within a month.

[guyfawkes5]

[STATEMENT AIMED AT TOSA]I think you miss what I'm saying.[/STATEMENT AIMED AT TOSA] [STATEMENT ABOUT ME]I know Stig. I address him as a friend. Not in Japanese.[/STATEMENT ABOUT ME]

Have I made myself clearer? :)

A little pun directed at myself, someone has to do it.

That's great mate; now delete those warnings please. I have just established that said 'punishment' was unwarranted and that they are an unfair stain on my otherwise glorious reputation... I have to lead by example you know.

[Stig]

Meh I know Guy, he knows me. We both know that we can't be bothered with what we think of eachother ... and next to that we still respect eachother (sort of)

[Andres]

That might be true, but nevertheless, this is the Org and the Org forum rules apply. In case of a dispute, it's best to adress yourself in private to the moderator or admin involved. Off course, a public discussion can have it's benefits, but at the end of the story, it's the Org-staff that decides how the forumrules are interpreted. That's what you agreed on when signing up here.

You can disagree and state that you are not at all pleased by a particular decision, but you cannot give the staff orders, like guyfawkes5 just did.

Whether you like it or not, Tosa and his team are boss in here.

Imho, there are only two options: a) accept that as a fact and behave according to it ; b) leave.

[guyfawkes5]

...but you cannot give the staff orders, like guyfawkes5 just did.

I did say 'please'. And it's hardly 'orders' seeing as Tosa can just ignore me... which is what he's doing right now, seeing as the warnings are still there and he hasn't responded.

[Andres]

I think he responded already:

They'll fade off within a month.

[guyfawkes5]

I think he didn't since I asked for them to be removed.

[Stig]

In case of a dispute

That's the strange thing, there is no dispute

[Andres]

I think he'll respond within a month