A padawan seeks advice

[caravel]

I am relatively new to MTW and hope some of you sages will help me with a few questions. As of VI:

1) Is there any way to upgrade units entirely? ie: (hobilars into m sergeants into fuedal knights or archers into crossbowmen into longbowmen) Getting a sweet general and investing in him only to have his unit become obsolete is no good.

No.

2) Can assassins intercept enemy assassins/spies while counterspying? I've searched MTW forums and some claim no, some yes, and some even said their emissary caught some and it raised his valour. If no, how do you raise a spy's valour? The noobs churning out of the brothel aren't going to catch that lvl 6 assassin gunning for my generals.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Counterspying means intercepting rival spies/assassins. Your own spies and assassins can do this. It is debatable whether emissaries can or not (even though emissaries are stated to be "counterspying" when idle this may be just the default text, or they may be doing just that, though not as effectively as assassins and spies perhaps?). I know for definite that they could in STW, but I've never used emissaries enough in MTW to know if they can. The one thing I can say is that I've never noticed them gain valour from it, but that is not to say that they can't. The way to find out is to test it. Remember counterspying is different to your emissary/general/priest/princess suriving the attempt on his life and turning the tables on his attacker, this is the second layer of defense. An assassin caught by counterspies won't even get to the target, and you will simply see a message about an assassin being caught in your province by "bodyguards". The bodyguards are your counterspying agents (assassins/spies) and the border for if it is present.

Remember that the border fort will almost always replace your spy/assassin as the main counterspy if it is present. With a border fort in your province, your spies and assassins won't really have any opportunity to catch rival agents, as the that building will be doing their job.

[Caerfanan]

Remember that the border fort will almost always replace your spy/assassin as the main counterspy if it is present. With a border fort in your province, your spies and assassins won't really have any opportunity to catch rival agents, as the that building will be doing their job.

And that reminds me that I haven't used this strategy yet: no border forts to have good valour spies and assassins....

Would you put both a spy and an assassin in the province, though? Spies are good for loyalty (and prevent civil wars?), maybe assassins are better for counter spying?

To answer another part of the question: to gain valour, for a spy or an assassin, you have two things to consider

1/ If you have Viking Invasion: the buildings for spy and assassin do have upgrades, making your agents start with +1, +2 or +3 valour

2/ When they succeed in missions they gain valour: I don't know if this always happens or not: 'might depend of the valour of the target.

[Longbowmen Rock]

Thanks for the info. If I remember correctly in STW border forts were the equivolent of a lvl 3 spy, which caught anybody nefarious until halfway through the game, at which time your ninjas were well trained. If your assassins in MTW can intercept enemy spies and assassins as well as your spies, then what good are spies save for uncovering hidden vices and the fluke unlocking the gate during a siege? And how do you raise their valour?

[caravel]

Would you put both a spy and an assassin in the province, though? Spies are good for loyalty (and prevent civil wars?), maybe assassins are better for counter spying?

You can use combinations of either. I prefer to have 1 spy (for the happiness bonus) and two assassins, though I move them around a lot. You have to remember is that though they do not have any kind of cumulative effect, if one fouls up and lets a rival agent slip through, the others are there as a back up. As far as their counterspying ability goes, they are equal.

When they succeed in missions they gain valour: I don't know if this always happens or not: 'might depend of the valour of the target.

The always gain valour, though later valour stars require many more successful missions to be made (as usual I forget the exact numerics of this, but to gain 5 valour your assassin, for example, would need to kill a lot more than 5 victims).

If your assassins in MTW can intercept enemy spies and assassins as well as your spies, then what good are spies save for uncovering hidden vices and the fluke unlocking the gate during a siege? And how do you raise their valour?

Spies can orchestrate a treason plot on your disloyal generals, and greatly improve the loyalty of the provinces they're in. They can also incite rebellion in rival provinces. There is a cheesey way to valour up your spies when inciting revolts. First train a mass of 0 valour spies, about ten should do it. Next transfer them and another 3 or 4 valour spy to the province you are targeting (If this has a border fort you're throwing their lives way). The target province should already be in trouble, that is, it should already be low loyalty with smallish garrison. When your spies are in position end turn and observe the loyalty drop, if it is not significantly less than 100% you're probably wasting your time. If any of you spies were caught, the enemy has at least one counter spy in there, so you'll need a bit of luck. End turn again and fingers crossed. If a revolt occurred, check the valour of your spies. You will see that all of your spies, though they were just sitting there and were not contributing to inciting the revolt (only the highest valour spy does that) have valoured up, and gone from valour 0 to valour 1. Your main man may have valoured up also. This used to work differently in MTW v1.1 IIRC. In that version the effect of spies was cumulative as with STW.

I by far make my best spies and assassins through counterspying and inciting revolts. Waiting around for the brothel tavern upgrades in order to get valour bonuses just isn't viable.

[The Unknown Guy]

Note: Portugal is a fragfest for spy-incited revolts, if you´re playing the Almohads. Move hordes of spies there and watch as the invasion force is slowly pushed out by rebels.

For extra laughs move in a few imams and turn them into religious revolts.

[Caerfanan]

You can use combinations of either. I prefer to have 1 spy (for the happiness bonus) and two assassins, though I move them around a lot. You have to remember is that though they do not have any kind of cumulative effect, if one fouls up and lets a rival agent slip through, the others are there as a back up. As far as their counterspying ability goes, they are equal.

OK, several spies/assassins will each try to spot the enemy spy/assassin...

The always gain valour, though later valour stars require many more successful missions to be made (as usual I forget the exact numerics of this, but to gain 5 valour your assassin, for example, would need to kill a lot more than 5 victims).

Maybe it works like the command stars? 2 exp (N-1) succes to have N "stars"?

Spies can orchestrate a treason plot on your disloyal generals, and greatly improve the loyalty of the provinces they're in.

OK, this one did catch my attention: how do you plot your disloyal generals for treason? I'm very interested by that one!!!

[caravel]

OK, this one did catch my attention: how do you plot your disloyal generals for treason? I'm very interested by that one!!!

Just drag the spy over your (disloyal) general.

[Caerfanan]

Just drag the spy over your (disloyal) general.

Uh? Isn't that about vices or...

OK, I only used spies maybe twice on enemies' generals...

Thanks!