Arquebuse, hand cannons and musketeer...

[Omisan]

How do these units work? I don't get it. I've used these 3 thinking they would be an improvement over archers and crossbows, but they suck.

All they do is stand there and look around even if you give them an attack order.

I had 3 formations of shooters once do defend on flat terrain and I think less than 12 guys actually shot once at the approaching infantry.

Why aren't they firing together, you know the first row fires, then the second fire while the first reloads and so on?

[R'as al Ghul]

Do you have the 1.1 patch installed?
What you describe sounds like pre-patch behaviour. In 1.1 they rotate their ranks fine. Their main use is the morale penalty they cause. When firing at close units they'll inflict a lot of casualties and can break Cav charges.

R'as

[Subedei]

Question: Does it matter, if other units stand in front of musketeers etc...? I mean may it be that they stop firing???? Thanks, Subedei

[R'as al Ghul]

Yes, they will stop if they don't have a clear line of sight.
Archers and Xbows can shoot their arrows and bolts in an arc over the heads of those in front of them. That doesn't work with bullets, they can only be shot in a straight line.

[sapi]

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that bullets that could be fired in a smooth curve were a 'feature' of the game though

[R'as al Ghul]

"feature"?

[Carl]

ACtually they can be fired in an arc. But both Crossbows and Muskets will do allmost no damage when fired like that and Arrows are significantly less effective too.

[pike master]

place all gunpowder units on skirmish except handgunners and you should get the desired effect.in other words swap the initial settings since arqs and musketeers are on stand ground while handgunners are on skirmish initially.

[HoreTore]

Well, actually, the early hand gun was more of a mortar, so they would probably be able to do it :p

EDIT: question: what does the skirmish mode do for gunpowder troops? does it stop them from rotating ranks and have them reloading on the spot? If so, what are the cons to this?

[Subedei]

Yes, they will stop if they don't have a clear line of sight.
Archers and Xbows can shoot their arrows and bolts in an arc over the heads of those in front of them. That doesn't work with bullets, they can only be shot in a straight line.

o.k., thanks a lot for the answer R'as al Ghul...so that is why they sometimes suck bigtime...did not expect that much reality, but good...off to play around with Musketeers....

p.s. look how many new smileys we got....

[pike master]

with musketeers and arqs,when skirmish is turned on they stop rotating lines which is what causes they bug. in skirmish they remain in place and the first rank fires only but the rate of fire is higher because of the bug affecting the rotating ranks.

the handgunners discharge their guns at very close range so if they skirmished they wouldnt get very many shots off. and they are about one of the toughest melee units in the game anyways. so they should stand their ground.

[Furious Mental]

It ends the counter march. I'm quite sure they fire slower in skirmish because they don't do the counter march, but it means they don't turn their line to face an enemy unit that is to their side, and of course they run away if enemy units get to close to them.

[Spajus]

slightly off topic, but playing as russia, I've found it very attractive to have a few armies made of half-stack DVOR archers + half-stack musketeers with maybe 1-2 calvalry units.

You are capable of inflicting incredible ranged damage, and still able to stand your ground in a fight, if the cossack's skirmish behind the DVOR screen.

That is, if the enemy get anywhere near you...

(FYI, works fine vs western units, but this tactic dies on it's arse vs Mongol's.)

[rvg]

slightly off topic, but playing as russia, I've found it very attractive to have a few armies made of half-stack DVOR archers + half-stack musketeers with maybe 1-2 calvalry units.

You are capable of inflicting incredible ranged damage, and still able to stand your ground in a fight, if the cossack's skirmish behind the DVOR screen.

That is, if the enemy get anywhere near you...

(FYI, works fine vs western units, but this tactic dies on it's arse vs Mongol's.)

Yeah, an all-cavalry mongol stack will run them over like grass.

[Omisan]

»Another problem I noticed is that soemtimes foramtion of gunners just aim at whoever I tell them to attack, but never actually fire.

[sapi]

Another is that gunpowder troops on skirmish will move to face their targets, and if they're in long lines they'll march happily into the enemy; but this isnt' the thead for that ;)

[pike master]

until the patch though handgunners right now are pretty tough melee troops. and they are still more deadly then mtw/vi in accuracy.

they are one of my favorite melee troops especially with factions that dont have anything else to speak of in attack infantry.

usually combine them with other missile troops then when cav try to attack the missile troops, after being shot up some by crossbowmen one good volley of gunpowder willl usually rout them combined with a counterattack by cav to meet them.

[The Teacher]

Musketeers - From my use of them I can say that.

1) Very good range.
2) Use them sparingly one or two per stack.
3) Line them up so they are one man or two man deep.
4) Dont let them get into a melee situation as they are rubbish.
5) They can only fire in straight line so not over peoples heads.

How I use them: Attacking a settlement, knock down the walls or gate. March up the Musketeers. Let them fire untill all ammo or targets are gone. March them to the back and thats their work done. Or in a bridge battle put them on a nice overlooking slope or hill.

Hope that helps.

T

[Subedei]

Thanx "The Teacher" I ´ll try some of your hints....that was a good class on Musketeers...

[Carl]

March up the Musketeers.

theirs no need to do this actually, they have a fixed accurracy so they do just as much damage at maximum range as at point blank.

[HoreTore]

Well, here's how I use my janissaries:

- the army usually consists of 4 musketeers, 6 heavy infantry, 4 archers, 1 general, 3 heavy cavalry and 2 turkomans
- deployed with archers at the front with stakes, infantry behind them, and musketeers at the back. Cavalry goes wherever I feel like it, usually the flanks
---------SSSS--------
---------AAAA--------
T------HHHHHH-----T
---------MMMM-------
HCHC-------------HCHC

HC= heavy cav, M= musketeers, S= stakes, A=archers, H=heavy infantry, T= Turkomans

-As soon as the battle starts, the archers and musketeers switch places. Then, I'll fire away until I can close and kill...

[The Teacher]

to the above post: How do you stop the mustkets from killing your own troops? I find that if there is a melee infront of them the muskets mash up my own troops as well as the enemy.

[gardibolt]

Don 't melee in front of them, is the answer.

I fought a battle last night using a couple of merc arquebuses against a Danish army of DFK that badly outnumbered me. Whenever they could get a clear shot, the arqs blew the DFKs apart. I was impressed by what they can manage if you keep the rest of your forces back and just let them fire. Of course, sometimes the AI doesn't give you that luxury....

[The Teacher]

thats what i think the answer is aswell. but i have seen the ai spearmen do a bracing formation where they kneel down. could this be used infront of the muskets? has any1 seen or done this?

[Marius Dynamite]

Put your pikes in the kneel down formation directly behind your muskets and the pikes will go through the musket ranks. Putting your pikes 3 ranks deep and muskets 2 ranks deep will make it as though your frontline is 5 ranks with first 2 being muskets and last 3 being pikemen with spears protecting musketeers. It's a pretty formidable line, I think it was the tactic used before the bayonet. Maybe if you use the skirmish thing aswell then it will be better so the pikes dont get in the way of the reload, I'll go test.

[Lord Fluffy]

In my Spanish game, I had the Tercio pikemen do just that. I group one pikemen and one musketeer together, and overlap them. Very good for street fighting too. With the pike fix, it's devastating. You have to readjust the musketeer every now and then though. They tend to creep backward into the pike formation, then they stop shooting.

[HoreTore]

to the above post: How do you stop the mustkets from killing your own troops? I find that if there is a melee infront of them the muskets mash up my own troops as well as the enemy.

I switch places as soon as the battle starts. Archers go to the back, musketeers to the front and infantry in the middle. That way I'll have the stakes in the front, and the formation change goes fast.

[pike master]

thats the trick though. if you put arqs and muskets in skirmish they wont shuffle back and forth and will remain in place while firing with the front rank firing only and reloading but because of the reloading loop bug it creates a higher rate of fire than rotating lines.

the muskets and crossbowmen on fire at will will usually not shoot into your troops if they are behind them as much as shoot into the air.

not sure about the accuracy thing at range. ill have to test that.

[Carl]

not sure about the accuracy thing at range. ill have to test that.

It's a fact, trust me, i've looked at the Descr_Projectiles file and they have a fixed accurracy in their of 94.5%. They hit about 3 times more often at max range than arrows, and are rather more likliy to kill with each hit due to both the high attack and flat trajectory.

[gardibolt]

That would explain why they were doing such a number on those Danish DFKs. Thanks for the info, Carl.

How do you put pikes into kneeling formation? Is that their guard position? I don't use pikes much, but this tactic may change my practice.