African Elite Heavy Infantry

[Sobric]

Hi all,

Just registered to ask why Carthage gets access to this unit so early? I've only faced one (so far) in my Roman campaign (it could be a merc I guess...?) but it seems strange that my neighbours have an 'imitation' legion before I have a real legion (~245 B.C., I'm still in the Camilian period).

Are units such as imitation legions linked to Rome's progress? Or can they access them in any year? I'm not particularily frustrated, they haven't posed a problem yet as I've only me one, but considering they are as tough as my veteran Triarii, I have a fear that I'll see an army of them marching across the desert anytime soon.

[Pharnakes]

With a few minor exceptions only rome has reforms and certaintly all imitation legionary troops are available at the appropriate mic level, however be aware that much of history is roman, and the romans had a tendency to assume that any heavy infantry were "imitation" legionaries when in many cases it was the opposing faction that first used such troops.

[Watchman]

The Elite Africans can easily enough be regarded as an outgrowth of the Iberian infantry tradition as well, after all, even if historically they were African vets re-equipped with Roman gear. The conceptual leap from the Iberian Assaults (or Loricati Caetrati/Scutari) to the Elite Africans would seem short indeed, nevermind now the Samnites (who gave the Romans the idea in the first place...).

[QwertyMIDX]

I think there are supposed to be Carthie reforms added to the game at some point to hold off the appearance some of the later units.

[CaesarAugustus]

The term "imitation legionaires" was generally used by Romans to describe any other soldiers that used large shields and fought in some sort of formation. It doesn't necessarily mean that their weaponry and tactics were influenced by the Romans, and in many cases these "imitation legions" were fighting like that long before they came into contact with Roma (ex: the Seleukid's "imitation" legionaires)

[dutch81]

Would it not be a fairly easy fix however to make these 'imitation" units also come on line when the reforms happen in Rome ... or has EB changed the way this works radically from how it worked in RTW (I have not checked these files myself yet)
Along the same line I find it a bit odd that roman rebels in Italy are a generation ahead in technology then I am ... they already have have velites etc. from the Polybium reforms when I have not had them.

[Arkatreides]

I guess one way to delay more elite/late period units is to make the number of turns to build a tier 5 MIC very long (like 50+) ... then again that might stagnate the town development ...

[Krusader]

Or see if we can tie some Carthaginian units like the cataphract reform...face them in battle, gain trait or something...

Although some units could also be reasonable developments within the time frame it takes to build the necessary MICs.

[dutch81]

Well again I am not very familiar with how EB's recruiting system works but in RTR all legion begins with the marius reforms so when Rome starts building them then so can other factions provided they have the required barracks. I like this because it is rather strange to have imitation units running around when the so called originals are not there yet.

Again you have that with the Italian rebels as well ... here you have to fight Polybian units when you still have Camilian (sp?) units in your own army ... I think spawning rebel armies should be base units, as rebels are less likely to have the most modern and up to date equipment and training in fact it is the only place where I felt that the base RTW unit 'peasants' really did fit very well.

[Kugutsu]

Just because the romans called them imitation legionaries doesnt mean they actually were. Im sure the carthaginians had both the know how and the experience to arm heavy infantry with javelins, swords, armour and large shields. After all the romans adapted a lot of the tech from the spanish and the gauls, who the carthies were also in contact with.
Considering Marius' reforms only happened in 107 BC, some 40 years after Carthage had been sacked, I assume that the Carthaginians had their heavy african infantry first.

[Foot]

Well again I am not very familiar with how EB's recruiting system works but in RTR all legion begins with the marius reforms so when Rome starts building them then so can other factions provided they have the required barracks. I like this because it is rather strange to have imitation units running around when the so called originals are not there yet.

They are not imitation legions! Why is it so difficult for you to understand that roman writers write from a roman perspective, and that heavily armoured infantry with a large shield, sword and javelin do not require romans to come up with it.

Foot

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Because the triggers for the vanilla Marian reforms can't be altered, EB does not use the vanilla reforms (well mostly). The system is much more complex and requires splits in building tiers. Basically, the reforms don't do anything but close one pathway and open another (see picture). This switch is triggered by the placement of the reform buildings. The reforms only effect the Romans. In order for reforms to effect other factions, the script would have to be changed to place the reform buildings everywhere, not just in Roman provinces. Then new MICs would have to be made for the faction you want to be effected, with the appropriate ons and offs for those MICs.

Therefore, you can't easily use the Roman reforms for other factions. Some units are triggered by the vanilla reform to cause a slight delay (a couple years) for factions like the Seleucids and Makedonia.


In the Camilian Era, you can only follow the red arrows, in the Polybian Era you can only follow the green arrows. Camilian units are only available on the top. Polybian units are only available on the bottom. It is all one building tier.

[QwertyMIDX]

They are not imitation legions! Why is it so difficult for you to understand that roman writers write from a roman perspective, and that heavily armoured infantry with a large shield, sword and javelin do not require romans to come up with it.

Foot

Actually, any heavy infantry with a large shield and javelin would do it. Plenty of 'imitation legionaries' actually seem to have had spears.

[dutch81]

They are not imitation legions! Why is it so difficult for you to understand that roman writers write from a roman perspective, and that heavily armoured infantry with a large shield, sword and javelin do not require romans to come up with it.

Foot

I don't think I am having a hard time understanding anything ... the Roman Legion was a revolutionary concept in ancient warfare ... it changed the nature of warfare in the ancient world for at least say 500 years. If it was not something special that set Rome apart from its enemies then it would not have come to dominate so much of the known world. More over if you read both of my replies I am just trying to learn how your MIC works exactly ... and my biggest problem had more to do with rebels armies spawning superior units then actual factions. I don't know why I fighting rebels that have had reforms when I have not had them ...

[Foot]

I don't think I am having a hard time understanding anything ... the Roman Legion was a revolutionary concept in ancient warfare ... it changed the nature of warfare in the ancient world for at least say 500 years. If it was not something special that set Rome apart from its enemies then it would not have come to dominate so much of the known world. More over if you read both of my replies I am just trying to learn how your MIC works exactly ... and my biggest problem had more to do with rebels armies spawning superior units then actual factions. I don't know why I fighting rebels that have had reforms when I have not had them ...

The revolution was in having a large, well-trained, professional army with superior equipment and successful, well executed formations. Equipping men with javelins and large shields is not revolutionary, but it was for their equipment rather than for their training that the "imitation legionnaires" were called "imitation legionnaires". That is why calling them "imitation legionnaires" is just plain foolish - they weren't Legions.

As for the rebels, I assume you mean the spawns rather than rebel recruitment. Unfortunately we can't change rebel spawning by date (you can in MTW2 of course), so we had to go with a happy medium.

Foot