Patch 2 release date

[ergothead]

Yes its pretty much what happens with all games/software with developers and 2nd party publishers. Some call it politics, others call it standard business practice....

Actually, it happens in all work environments, some much more than others, and is magnified several times in IT and software development. It's not standard business practice because it often gets in the way of doing things properly. Unless you've been exposed to this, it's really hard to grasp how destructive it is.

[Bongaroo]

LOL, I'm sure "real" world IT is bad but I get to deal with state employee IT almost everyday. Now those guys really live in their own little kingdoms and god forbid you show more technical knowledge.

[ergothead]

::whoops, active thread. this is a response to ergo::

I've heard of and seen plenty. Free beta testers usually cost more to organize than they are worth. Testing for bugs isn't all that exciting and glamorous as I'm sure your aware; I'm sure the cost/benefit and time to finish is better this way.

You don't need a large pool. Honestly, just from these forums alone, they could draw 10 to 15 great testers that would diligently accept the assignment, and require little direction. But you are right, it is neither glamorous or exciting, but with a small solid group, who get thier names in the credits for payment, it would be easy to organise, costless to implement and would put out a better product and in a much quicker time frame. All you need to do is do it right by having a solid, streamlined, repeatable process.

[Odin]

Actually, it happens in all work environments, some much more than others, and is magnified several times in IT and software development. It's not standard business practice because it often gets in the way of doing things properly. Unless you've been exposed to this, it's really hard to grasp how destructive it is.

I have been exposed to it, as a business practice and as politics. like I said in a previous post i worked for a software dev company that was producing software to run on cisco servers. Cisco wouldnt endorse a release of the product until they got to look at it and test it themselves. In my expirence with that company that was standard business practice.

I dont see any evidence here that this isnt the case with sega and CA, perhaps i am being to optomistic, but what would be the political motivation for a delayed time line of release of a patch anyway?

Based on my expirence if patches work well, its a postive PR gain for the developer and the the producers of a game.

[Callahan9119]

i am content to wait if it means this will be a good patch. i'll happily wait an extra few weeks, rather than grumble to myself for the next 5 months about something they missed

i wish they would have waited an extra 6 months to release the game, i continue to lament that my beloved glorious achievments were left out of this version of mtw

[Erik Bloodaxe]

You don't need a large pool. Honestly, just from these forums alone, they could draw 10 to 15 great testers that would diligently accept the assignment, and require little direction. But you are right, it is neither glamorous or exciting, but with a small solid group, who get thier names in the credits for payment, it would be easy to organise, costless to implement and would put out a better product and in a much quicker time frame. All you need to do is do it right by having a solid, streamlined, repeatable process.

Sounds like a great idea! but I doubt it will happend:(

[ergothead]

I'd like to clarify something. My original post that said this particular thing was politics is wrong. I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

On a side note, CA isn't buidling an app to run on SEGA's switches. The are a development company that simply isn't big enough to have the funds to put out a game of this magnitute themselves... or at least recover if the game failed. This has to be thought of in a different context... more like the relationship between Independent film companies and the large film companies that sponser a movie release for them.

[Lusted]

I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Yeah they use SEGAs once things have gone through inhouse testing. SEGA own CA remember, they don't just publish the games.

[a_ver_est]

I hope the big size of the patch means a lot of bugs fixed.

Anyway now I am sure which I going to have time enought to finish my current long campaing without rushing.

[ergothead]

They actually own CA? Is it more like a subsidiary, or like a segment of the same company?

[JCoyote]

I would agree, they could probably find a couple dozen dedicated beta testers among the forums.

If I could get credit somehow, or at least use it on a resume, I'd definitely do it. Fill out plenty of checksheets, write up short reports and everything. In some ways I already feel like I've been a beta tester on M2TW anyway.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Sega has a large game testing pool. It makes sense that final broader testing would be done by them. What the poster said they saw in Europe is probably the tip of the iceberg, they probably have a lot in Japan.

BTW, anyone with a slower connection needs to pick up a download manager like Gozilla or Gigaget... it'll save you hours, if not days worth of pain on the upcoming download.

[Lusted]

They actually own CA? Is it more like a subsidiary, or like a segment of the same company?

More like a subsidiary i think given the fact that CA still seems to be a seperate company almost, but owned and have thier games published by SEGA.

[Quickening]

So, the 23rd of March for release. Bit annoying but oh well.

[ergothead]

More like a subsidiary i think given the fact that CA still seems to be a seperate company almost, but owned and have thier games published by SEGA.

I don't know much about SEGA, but I hope the dev's at CA have a great relationship with them. It sounds like it could be a complete nightmare.

[Lusted]

Well CA seem to like the relationship, or at least from what they've said. SEGA seem to be listening to them a bit more than thier old publishers Activision did.

[Callahan9119]

no way that they would open up that can of worms, unless it was a game that relies on subscriptions per month to pay the bills you wont see it happen from a company like sega, even if Ca was open to it, which i dont think they would be.

i remember playing dark age of camelot for a long time with the token community team leads who made reports and suggestions regarding class and game balance, they were never really listened to

blizzard on the other hand has some good class "overlords" who are owned by the company, yet they are under the iron fist of the angry 7 million strong mob

community members dont have to toe a company line besides maybe a "nda", so i doubt they want people bringing up too many things the company doesnt want to be brought up or dealt with at the time...and i dont think the community while active, is powerful enuff to make sega decide to do any testing outside of its own house

plus they are pretty hush hush about letting things out, any info from the site seems like it is squeezed out of them by force, and only then with great suffering do they let it go

you'll eat your green beans and like it

[ergothead]

I appreciate all the info and the clarification. It seems my initial perception of the "lockdown" was flawed because I really didn't understand the relationshiop between CA and SEGA.

I'm not a huge fan of the process and business model SEGA is using to do this, I much prefer to see a team of testers working directly with devs on these types of projects. Just because I don't like the model, doesn't mean it won't work, but SEGA's team that is working with CA better be very good, and work well with them or success won't be likely. This patch is a huge test, and if not successful, I think the particular business model and process would hold much of the blame. If it is a good patch, then my hat is off to the CA dev's, simply because this model really seems to put huge pressure on them.

[ergothead]

you'll eat your green beans and like it

Now THAT is funny.

[Yun Dog]

the patch get here when it gets here

[HoreTore]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

My guess at why it's taking longer than promised, is that they have found a new bug. I've been in the same situation myself(online game), so let's not stress them more than necessary.. I'm pretty sure they're stressed enough as it is already...

[Quickening]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

My guess at why it's taking longer than promised, is that they have found a new bug. I've been in the same situation myself(online game), so let's not stress them more than necessary.. I'm pretty sure they're stressed enough as it is already...

I was under the impression that the new launcher is just so that you can actually start the game from it which you can't do now.

[Lusted]

A new launcher? I hope it's not another copy-protection thingy... Those things always screw things up for people who have bought the game legally...And hackers will get around it anyway...

It's not as far as i aware, they're just building more features into it.

[Aquitaine]

>> I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Oh please. Outside of the MMO market, where patches can just be tested on a 'testing' server, I can't think of many dev hosues that use the public to beta test anything. Paradox, maybe, but even then it's just a small handful to complement the developers.

Using the public for stuff like this means you need an infrastructure to handle massive amounts of input (most of which will be worthless, since the number of people even on this forum who know both how to accurately test and properly report things can probably be counted on two hands) and you risk leaks of beta patches getting to the community, people installing them and hosing their computers, and then blaming CA.

Even if ten different devs were testing the patch at CA, one of the reasons you have a publisher is because they have a QA department (something most developers do not). It's not just a matter of noticing things like animation and shield bugs, which the community is very good at catching -- it's a matter of testing everyone on a zillion combinations of hardware, which means you need a lab and bunch of testers willing to do really boring stuff over and over and over again on different machines.

If the entire basis of your argument is 'their business model is flawed because I won't have the patch when I want it' then you might want to look at your motivation for your criticism. If the patch wasn't tested and broke something new, or else didn't properly fix something and created new problems for modders, you can expect that they'd hear about it on these forums. It's not like they're capriciously holding it back. They get to release x number of patches and it's a considerable undertaking to do so -- they don't want to release it and then a week later go 'oh, wait, actually download this too.'

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.

[Lorenzo_H]

This is good news.

[derfinsterling]

I'm confused on why it is supposed to be bad that Sega tests whatever CA hands over.
Developers aren't good testers. Better to have a dedicated team to test a piece of software than just the guys who wrote it in the first place.
I work at an Austrian IT provider and we have one department that does the development (and basic tests), then, when the devs say they're all done, they hand it over to the test department who test the crap out of the software.

Then, when the testers say they're run and "all"* bugs have been ironed out, we hand the thing over to our customers and *demand* that they test the software again.
That's pretty much for legal purposes. If a piece of software goes live and then crashes, we at least share the liability together with our client because he didn't properly check the application before giving the green light.

And there a still a few bugs that pop up in the real world. Sure, it's frustrating, but that's pretty much the way it is. Sadly, software isn't finished, it's released.







* "all" meaning whatever percentage of bugs fixed was originally set as the goal with the customer.

[econ21]

I was under the impression that the new launcher is just so that you can actually start the game from it which you can't do now.

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was afraid I was going mad. Or that my computer just hated me.

[ergothead]

>> I realised this once I learned that CA didn't use any beta testers. Thier business model is flawed.

Oh please. Outside of the MMO market, where patches can just be tested on a 'testing' server, I can't think of many dev hosues that use the public to beta test anything. Paradox, maybe, but even then it's just a small handful to complement the developers.

Using the public for stuff like this means you need an infrastructure to handle massive amounts of input (most of which will be worthless, since the number of people even on this forum who know both how to accurately test and properly report things can probably be counted on two hands) and you risk leaks of beta patches getting to the community, people installing them and hosing their computers, and then blaming CA.

Even if ten different devs were testing the patch at CA, one of the reasons you have a publisher is because they have a QA department (something most developers do not). It's not just a matter of noticing things like animation and shield bugs, which the community is very good at catching -- it's a matter of testing everyone on a zillion combinations of hardware, which means you need a lab and bunch of testers willing to do really boring stuff over and over and over again on different machines.

If the entire basis of your argument is 'their business model is flawed because I won't have the patch when I want it' then you might want to look at your motivation for your criticism. If the patch wasn't tested and broke something new, or else didn't properly fix something and created new problems for modders, you can expect that they'd hear about it on these forums. It's not like they're capriciously holding it back. They get to release x number of patches and it's a considerable undertaking to do so -- they don't want to release it and then a week later go 'oh, wait, actually download this too.'

If relying on the public was such a great business idea, it would be done much more often than it is. The fact is that most (but certainly not all) of the public doesn't know how to properly do QA work even if they are great at catching certain types of problems, and that using the public introduces significant risks as well. They have a process that they think works, or at least it's the best deal they could cut with Sega. Seems to be an improvement over what they had with Activision, anyway.

Before you make such a lengthy reply, you should read all that was written. I did not realize the exact relationship between CA and SEGA, it's a unique relatioinship between gaming partners that I have not seen before. This means that CA relies on SEGA for the larger scale testing. The process they are using puts a huge burden on the devs, and quite frankly, makes the process of making solid patches very difficult to pull off. If this next patch is a failure, as I said before, blame the process, not the devs.

Also, I was not talking about allowing a crapload of random public peeps for the beta test, but a handful of very good, carefully chose ones. This isn't just in the MMO market either, it is becoming very prevalent in FPS games, and has been prevalent in RTS games for a long time. Heck, even EA has started doing it. Sure, some leaks will happen sometimes. but consider that against a much better product released a lot sooner and it's a no-brainer.

Please, make sure you read all the content before replying, I'm not to fond of repeating myself in the same thread.

[Jambo]

It is news and that is a good thing, but I'm not sure it is good news! ;)

My original, albeit pessimistic, bet on when patch 2 would arrive was guessed at 20th March. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be sadly close to correct.

Nevermind, back into lurking and obscurity for a minimum 3 weeks.

[Bijo]

[...] the update size will be about 650 megs. [...]

Over 600 M-*******-B?!?! It better be good.

[Doug-Thompson]

After owning this game for weeks and never even noticing the shield bug on my own, I'm not going to be very quick to criticise anybody for missing anything.