V1.21 Rebuild-ProblemFixer BETA testing thread

[Carl]

I've not observed that combining of stacks to be common behavior. At least not against rebel settlements.

fair enough.

Let me know how you get on with the moors kiling as england anyway.

I found the source of the rep bug, and a couple of other bugs besides. Give me until sometime tomorrow and I'll have the next version of the BETA out.

It will include slightly debuffed rebels and reduced starting money for the player too, and maybe one or two other tricks.

The bug was that I'd accidentally removed the agent limits for Spy's/Assassins, the player probably never noticed the lack of limits, and until it got enough movement, presumably, the A wasn't able to do enough assassination/spying to really hit rep.

[vonsch]

I found the source of the rep bug, and a couple of other bugs besides. Give me until sometime tomorrow and I'll have the next version of the BETA out.

It will include slightly debuffed rebels and reduced starting money for the player too, and maybe one or two other tricks.

The bug was that I'd accidentally removed the agent limits for Spy's/Assassins, the player probably never noticed the lack of limits, and until it got enough movement, presumably, the A wasn't able to do enough assassination/spying to really hit rep.

Any idea if they will take effect without restarting?

[Carl]

Probably not i'm afraid, sorry about this, I still can't figure out the alliances issue either. It's STILL happening, it seems to be linked to when the AI switches from passive to active vs. the player but I can't figure out why...

I'll try asking other modders if they know what does it.

As an aside, their was an EDU bug too, (the morale changes had undone themselves somehow, unsure how exactly ATM, probs an old backup got pasted over the top or something).

WAIT, the assassins/spy change will as it's an EDB entry change, the changes to factions standings, Rebels, Starting Money, and a few other things won't though.

[Bob the Insane]

Byz spearmen are good... Not spectacular but can be relied upon to hold the line against other spearmen and cavalry... Turkish Halberders tore them a new one though!!

I was a litle inaccurate with my date above (the problem of working from memory)... The state of the world above was in 1136...

I have got to 1148 now and I really do not think you have ot worry about hte AI capturing provinces too much...

The toggle_fow:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Only the a couple of Middle Eastern provinces remain... I took Zagreb, but it was week enough to surrender ot my full stack so the AI would have goten it eventually...

Note the Pope has wiped out the Sicilians and taken their lands!!


Only England and Milan have missed out on the eaxpansions...

[vonsch]

For some reason Nottingham isn't seeing hobilars as eligible for garrison duty. I have a stable and have been making and upgrading them there, so that's not the issue. It keeps using my peasant archers instead. Move those out, still won't take the hobilars as garrison. Did something change in how that works from 1.13?

Or am I confusing my mods again.

Heh, faction heir, soon to be kind (William is 61) just picked up Martin Luther in Edinburg.

I'm preparing the Timbuktu expedition now. Sails this turn. Mostly hobilars. I'll hire mercs for seige work if I need them. A bit concerned that I'm still not seeing any pirates or bandits, despite running with the changed numbers for those.

Oops, are they turn-number triggered? Pirate fleet just appeared off Dover.

First heretic popped in England on turn 28. Not due to hereticism locally. Died same turn. My one priest left there (rest on the boats!) was a 2 skill compared to his 1. Got lucky.

It's a 10 turn trip to Marrakesh from Ireland. Too long. Captured Marrakesh on turn 30. Will see some incoming attacks though. It was garrisoned with the Sultan. That was it. He was killed in the fighting. Rep at Very Untrustworthy, but it was there before my sneak attack. If I'd had a diplomat in range I would have tried using him to declare war. Only had trade rights with the Moors. Need to wait for the unrest to calm down anyway, and for my God squad to do its job.

[Carl]

Or am I confusing my mods again.

Confused LOL, i never made Hobladiers free upkeep.

Oops, are they turn-number triggered? Pirate fleet just appeared off Dover.

No, but the Pirates won't come near you if you don't have any ships. They home in on other ships.

It's a 10 turn trip to Marrakesh from Ireland. Too long. Captured Marrakesh on turn 30. Will see some incoming attacks though. It was garrisoned with the Sultan. That was it. He was killed in the fighting. Rep at Very Untrustworthy, but it was there before my sneak attack. If I'd had a diplomat in range I would have tried using him to declare war. Only had trade rights with the Moors. Need to wait for the unrest to calm down anyway, and for my God squad to do its job.

Thanks for that.

Byz spearmen are good... Not spectacular but can be relied upon to hold the line against other spearmen and cavalry... Turkish Halberders tore them a new one though!!

About what i hoped for, the Byz AI just tends to go a Little crazy early on, and it didn't before I gave them a buff.

I have got to 1148 now and I really do not think you have to worry about the AI capturing provinces too much...

The AI always looks a Little like that by 1150+ It's what it looks like at 1100 or before that got vonsch and me worried. A blitz can easily secure 6+ provinces for the player in that time whilst most AI's have at best 3 provinces. We rreally need to slow the player down.

Still tracking down one currentlly existing bug.

[vonsch]

Still have pagan magician disease. Just picked up two in Marrakesh. 1% pagan. I always comment that one out, at least until we can find the right syntax to tie it to the percentage of the pagans, rather than a less than high percentage of own religion. That -2 piety hurts, and its arrival is less than logical.

Now if it were a Jewish scholar...

I'm starting to think that we do have a culture penalty. Of some sort. Shows up in generic unrest. But haven't tracked it carefully yet.

Oh, a note on my invasion. I unloaded from the ships, hit crusade and wasn't given the option of Marrakesh, though it was there before. I think maybe you can't have troops (or a general) in the target when declaring a crusade. But may just be coincidence and a higher priority target pushed it out. Coroba is still on the list, as is Tunis.

Also, there were no mercs to hire. Glad I brought a few foot troops, but my spies opened the gates in any case. The Moors are running around a lot of stacks with mercs in them.

Heh, almost 50% corruption. Time to build some law buildings.

[Carl]

I'm starting to think that we do have a culture penalty. Of some sort. Shows up in generic unrest. But haven't tracked it carefully yet.

Yeah, it still their, tells you in the Descr_Regions file found in M2TW/DATA/World/Maps/Base/

Still have pagan magician disease. Just picked up two in Marrakesh. 1% pagan. I always comment that one out, at least until we can find the right syntax to tie it to the percentage of the pagans, rather than a less than high percentage of own religion. That -2 piety hurts, and its arrival is less than logical.

I'll take a look as it's bothering me too.

Also, there were no mercs to hire. Glad I brought a few foot troops, but my spies opened the gates in any case. The Moors are running around a lot of stacks with mercs in them.

Achhh, theirs a big chunk of Africa with no mercs to hire in it at all actually. I'll have to fix that, been meaning to but forgot...


I think, (till need to run a last test), I know why alliances aren't going of right.

First the factions aren't getting into wars on turn 3 anymore so they don't go looking for alliances their.

Second, I think when the AI is planning an attack it counts as at war for the purposes of some of the triggers in the AI file, but not in terms of diplomacy.

Third, I've buffed the Factions a fair bit with the money script.


I think what was happening was that the AI before was so much weaker than the slaves it was getting alliances to gang up on it. Now the AI is stronger in comparison to the slaves than it used to be, (even though the slaves have gone up), it's no longer trying so much. I can cure it though i think so...

[vonsch]

Good, you have a potential lead on the war/diplomacy dearth.

Hmm, I hadn't noticed no mercs before. But then I don't use them much, so I probably would just assume they were all hired up by the "competition." Can that happen? Or does the player have a separate pool?

I had a thought while trying to sleep last night. There's a trigger for waking up the bandits, isn't there? I believe I saw mention of it somewhere. Some earlier random bandits would not be a bad thing. It would create more randomness to AI conquests (have to get past those stacks in strategic spots, I've seen them block Pyranees passes, for example), and give the player a bit more to deal with. Not saying we need a LOT of bandits, just that they start appearing sooner. I've seen very few this test. Need more, need them earlier. I set mine to what you gave me earlier.

It both helps and hurts the player (and gives the player turtling something to do!). It affects movement in blitz attempts (and attrits forces, to some degree), but it also gives the player something to train units and generals on. Same with pirates. My trip to Marrakesh found zero pirates in 10 turns. I don't think they should be swarming, but an England to Marrakesh sail should turn up at least one pirate fleet, I'd say. Maybe 2-3. There needs to be risk in that sort of strategic maneuver. Especially since the AI is so rotten at them.

Too many will impede the AI which probably won't prioritize transport over combat. But it's plain too easy to do a Hail Mary move now.

This is, of course, aside from the game-play issue of it taking a long time. The density of pirate fleets is unrelated to how long in moves it takes to go somewhere. And the pirates get the same movement boost, so have to consider how they "find" player/AI fleets in the balancing. Could every pirate in the Med converge in the center onto the player's fleet in one move? Or do pirate have to obey FOW rules, and can only "see" what's in that range, thus have to randomly stumble over the player?

Only way to know is to test. Don't seem to be many (or any) pirates in AD, so my dabbling there hasn't contributed any data on how the long ship moves affect piracy.

Oh, I haven't had a leader parked in Edinburg, but am cycling one through to manage the build queue. It turn 30 it passed 12000 population. I occupied it, didn't sack. It has been mostly on low taxes to pump growth. But it's only level 2 farms. I do push for fast growth in the early cities as more population means more taxes (until you get into squalor problems, but early is key). Can deal with those problems when you have a larger base of cities (and huge walls!)

London is just hitting 11k on turn 31. Not sure if Edinburg has better base growth or if the AI leaves taxes low and pumps it faster that way. Seems odd it would have better growth than London. Scotland isn't the picture of fertility.

Looks like the Moors are breaking against Valencia still. Diplomat just spotted it neutral with Moor stacks in the area. I wondered where all their troops are. Haven't seen many in Africa.

Darn, Pope called a crusade on Jerusalem before I could get one off to forestall him. Let's see who joins it. I can't amass the force to take it with THAT garrison from what I can hire on the way and have in hand. (Not complaining... it's an observation ) Err, correction, AM complaining about that silly Pope. I wanted a crusade on something handier.

Siccing a diplo on rebs in sub-Sahara to try to raise some troops there. Moors own Timbuktu and heir is there, so can't bribe it directly, I expect. Need at least a garrison anyway.

Okay, around turn 35 seeing alliances forming. Still lots of rebel-owned cities around though.

King Rufus is now a Very Dishonest Ruler, despite doing nothing dishonest. Rep is Deceitful. Allied with 12 Christian factions, lack Sicily. A thought: is using spies contributing? If so, that's bad. I'm spying actively with 3-4 per turn, mostly to train them. So not using THAT many. I have about 6. No assassins at all. Spies should only hit rep if they are caught.

Wow, that's unusual. HRE has a perfect relationship with the Pope. On the other hand, Milan is first excommed. That's not ususual.

[Carl]

Spying drops your rep by 0.06 per time, so 3 to 4 at a time is 0.24 per turn and it only goes from +1 to -1 so that all out evil in just 5 turns.

I'm going to cut the penalty for that BTW.

[Bob the Insane]

Spying drops your rep by 0.06 per time, so 3 to 4 at a time is 0.24 per turn and it only goes from +1 to -1 so that all out evil in just 5 turns.

I'm going to cut the penalty for that BTW.

You only get the drop if your spy fails and dies right??

[vonsch]

I don't think that there should be a penalty for using spies. Spies are, well, a given. Incompetent spies, those that cause diplomatic incidents, on the other hand, are not.

Assassins are another matter entirely. That's an act of war. As is sabotage. But even so, getting caught should be the larger issue. Being known to hire lots of them should also acrue a significant penalty.

Both of these will hit the AI harder than the player though, since the AI tends to spam both. And it's not too smart about using them.

[Carl]

You only get the drop if your spy fails and dies right??

AND

I don't think that there should be a penalty for using spies. Spies are, well, a given. Incompetent spies, those that cause diplomatic incidents, on the other hand, are not.

It doesn't specify whether it means successfully or not, but my guess is any time a spy is used.

The reasoning for why is simple.

The Kings of the various factions will doubtless be entertaining foreign guests all the time and wealthy individuals. Some of these will probably be spies or be informal permanent ambassadors of other courts, (a messenger to carry messages between the two if you will). Even if the ruler in question receives his spy reports in private it is almost certain that the other side will be able to deduce that he knows things he shouldn't. He may even outright state he has knowledge of something.

If you will the spy might not get caught, (so they don't know HOW he gets the info), but his actions will make clear that he actually has the information.

On the Flip side his knowledge wouldn't ALWAYS be obvious as it wouldn't always be useful. The penalty is fine for knowledge that is valuable and is difficult to keep concealed, but too high for the stuff that can be kept quite on or the stuff that isn't useful. Add to that the way it hurts the AI and it's at least 3 times as high as it needs to be. 0.01 would be best though IMHO.


Assassins have 2 penalties, one for major assassination attempts, (probs anything but the Faction Heir/Leader), and one for minor attempts, (everything else).

I've also cut the AI assassin/spy spam now so it's not as bad as it could be.

The Diplomatic death has been found too.

It boils down to the fact that before the AI was starting wars or planning wars from day one so it was always trying to get alliances from the start. With the AI changes it doesn't start this for 30 turns. I can't make it get alliances before that against the slaves because otherwise everyone ends up allied to each other with pretty bad consequences as no AI faction will start a war, (I just saw this in a test BTW).

[vonsch]

Is there a trigger for failed spying at all? You could add back some penalty for failures if there is. If the ongoing penalty is very low, we can work with that. Might have to tinker with normalization of rep.

If the player is slowed down 10 turns, turn 20 would be to my taste for the more active diplomacy. Turn 30 seems late. But we need the AI factions moving faster on rebels first. (Juggling acts!)

I'm sort of expecting some declarations any turn now with my terrible rep. France, Spain, HRE are the likely prospects due to Caen. Rennes and the lowlands are still rebel though, but seeing more short stack traffic around Caen. Decided to beef it up a bit to see if that stalls them. Can afford it. Starting to bring Timbuktu merchants online. My expeditionary force is 2 turns from Timbuktu town, and it's under seige with a hijacked rebel stack and general. Have just enough to keep the garrison from sallying. Waiting on the reinforcements to force the issue. A largish Moor stack bypassed Marrakesh and is heading south now too. But dropping a fort in the narrow desert path to stall that to give me time to greet it better.

Not sure how much more I'll play this though. The eroding rep bugs me. Also, while seeing a few bandits and pirates, they are really sparse. Was hoping that Moor stack would beseige Marrakesh. My defenses aren't that good (well, weren't, better with two more turns of building) and I was looking forward to playing it out to see how the stone walls did.

Most of the bribed bandits have poofed, and the Moor ones too. But got that one general and he found 6 sudanese units as mercs in sub-Sahara. The void must be in Marrakesh.

[Carl]

Is there a trigger for failed spying at all? You could add back some penalty for failures if there is. If the ongoing penalty is very low, we can work with that. Might have to tinker with normalization of rep.

I can set one up.

p.s. my explanation was just a piece of justification for why i think CA did it, that and it discourage overuse of spies by high rep players.

If the player is slowed down 10 turns, turn 20 would be to my taste for the more active diplomacy. Turn 30 seems late. But we need the AI factions moving faster on rebels first. (Juggling acts!)

Tell me about it, i'm including a few triggers that should get the AI going faster once they can attack each other, and the AI Will still form alliances against the player pre turn 30 if the player attacks them.

Be aware that breaking even trade rights incurs a penalty i think, (theirs a penalty for breaking treaty conditions, I think it must be for breaking trade agreements as alliances are dealt with separately).

On the other hand signing trade rights gives a boost too so...

Not sure how much more I'll play this though. The eroding rep bugs me. Also, while seeing a few bandits and pirates, they are really sparse. Was hoping that Moor stack would beseige Marrakesh. My defenses aren't that good (well, weren't, better with two more turns of building) and I was looking forward to playing it out to see how the stone walls did.

Thats fine, i'm nearly o top of eveything now, just a few changes to make and try out then I can get V1.22 out.

[holycow]

do you still need volunteers to test 1.21? if so i've got some time this weekend. thanks.

[vonsch]

I've confirmed that the Moors (I assume AI factions in general too) can hire mercs in Marrakesh while I cannot. Darned army sitting in the mountains getting bigger when there's no way they are walking in! (Have towers and spies around)

Heh, running expeditionary forces on the cheap (hiring on the spot versus bringing along troops) is a bit risky, admittedly, but...

Meanwhile Timbuktu isn't happy with its new rulers. Even with full garrison and low taxes, best I can do is 50% public order . 75% unrest. Some will fade if I can escape riots. First time I've every invaded sub-Sahara, so new to me. Distance penalty is a large issue, as is religious unrest too. All three combined are plain trouble. Next time I move the God Squad in earlier and convert them to 80+% first. (Glad it's got more challenge than sheer distance! Considering how rich it is.)

Okay, I'll wait on the next dot rev. Looking forward to another of your tries at livening up the opening. And more sensible diplomacy and reputation.

Is it known if there's a benefit to breaking off agreements with a diplomat versus just shattering them with a "transgression?" In other words, are declarations of war via diplomatic message a little less of a rep hit? Be interesting if they are. Would increase the importance of diplomats in this environment.

[Carl]

Is it known if there's a benefit to breaking off agreements with a diplomat versus just shattering them with a "transgression?" In other words, are declarations of war via diplomatic message a little less of a rep hit? Be interesting if they are. Would increase the importance of diplomats in this environment.

It's better to break an alliance BEFORE attacking, but theirs no actual option to declare war via diplomacy before you attack, the only way to go from neutral to war status is by attacking, blockading or some other similar action.

do you still need volunteers to test 1.21? if so i've got some time this weekend. thanks.

Could do with them, it will be V1.22 though as V1.21 introduced a rep bug.

I've confirmed that the Moors (I assume AI factions in general too) can hire mercs in Marrakesh while I cannot. Darned army sitting in the mountains getting bigger when there's no way they are walking in! (Have towers and spies around)

Weird, i'll see if i can't figure that one out.

Okay, I'll wait on the next dot rev. Looking forward to another of your tries at livening up the opening. And more sensible diplomacy and reputation.

It should definetly be intrestin to watch.

[holycow]

ok, where/how do i get the v1.22?

question though, i've got big map mod, will that be compatible?

[Carl]

question though, I've got big map mod, will that be compatible?

No, their are changes to the Descr_Strat file so it wouldn't work with it, but it uses it's own mod folder so having big mp installed won't prevent you using this if you don't try to add big map mod onto this one.

OK, where/how do i get the v1.22?

It's not quite complete yet, tweaking AI aggressiveness (it takes too long to start wars after the time limit is up ATM), and adding a couple of traits. When it's ready I'll PM the link to everyone.

p.s. thank again everyone for the help.

here's an idea of how much the Jerusalem Garrison slows a player down now

I attacked with 2 stacks composed between them of:

11 Religious Fanatics

4 Crusader Knights

2 Mercenary Frankish Knights

2 Papal Guard

2 Italian Militia

2 Italian Spear Militia

8 Crusader Sergeants

2 Unhorsed Knights

2 Pilgrims

1 Gen with 4 Command (including siege/Islamic specific bonuses), and 2 dread.

Auto-resolved and lost:

Pics Below, first is the result, second is what was left:

https://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?...emseigehp9.jpg

https://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?...aindersip0.jpg


Was an untouched Garrison, but the Ballista towers would have made fighting it at least twice as hard so...

[vonsch]

What were your actual odds for the autoresolve?

And do you think maybe that one is a LITTLE over-garrisoned now?

[Carl]

roughly 1:1 odds.

If I hired a third army of an addittinal 4 pilgrams I won 400:550 in losses. Numbers count somtimes LOL.

Should have the BETA soon, need to sompress and upload though.

[Carl]

The V1.22 BETA has just been sent out. Therefore any further posts after this relate to V1.22 unless specifically stated otherwise in the relevant post.

[vonsch]

Okay, what should I play as faction this time?

[chickenhawk]

Carl I will have something for you Monday. Real life and all of that, you know.

[Carl]

How about trying turks or Byzantium?

I'd like your opinion on the Byzantine spears, and they are in a good position to blitz.

On the other hand the Turks are likely to be effected more by the starting money drop and we don't know if all the issues present in V1.20 where fixed yet.

Eventually I'd like someone to try France/HRE but I think they can wait till i'm happy with the eastern/British/Iberian factions.

Carl I will have something for you Monday. Real life and all of that, you know.

Thats fine, i'm gonna be the same on Sunday barring some kind of outrageous good luck.

[vonsch]

Okay, H/H as Turks. Never played Byz. May try them later.

Conservative isn't in your vocabulary is it? 0 starting florins? Well, that means get aggressive.

Heh, Byzzies hate me, but they give me gold. Love it. Alliance, maps and trade rights. Small amounts, but, hey, I started with nothing! My aim is to make them break a treaty to attack me (which they will do, they always do) and hopefully bring in some support for me as a result. Now, to get Hungary and Venice in my pockets too.

Trying a long shot. Probably won't work and I'll restart the same way except for that long shot. Tackling Tbilisi and Baghdad with my starting forces and what little I can build and get there in 2 turns. Hmm, 2:1 odds at Baghdad after 1 turn, it's doable. Baghdad needs a couple more defending units, maybe. But remember the AI has to have a decent shot at it.

Okay, now for a more serious start.

[Bob the Insane]

v1.22, started as Scotland with the intention of staying out of the way for 20 turns to see what the AI does on it's own...

Scotland had zreo starting funds! Nothing, zip, completely broke...

Intentional??

[Carl]

Scotland had zero starting funds! Nothing, zip, completely broke...

Intentional??

everyones the same. zero may be a bit extreme, but i can work up from their, it's to slow the player down a bit early on though you'll find Inverness easy to take as Scotland.

Okay, H/H as Turks. Never played Byz. May try them later.

Thats fine.

Conservative isn't in your vocabulary is it? 0 starting florins?

, Conservative? I thought that was a political party, not a gaming term.

I figured it would be easiest to start at 0 and work from their, doesn't seem to slow the AI much though, which is good. I suspect 0 will prove to be too much eventually, but I figured I'd start as low as I can and work it out from their. No chance of it being too high this way.

Trying a long shot. Probably won't work and I'll restart the same way except for that long shot. Tackling Tbilisi and Baghdad with my starting forces and what little I can build and get there in 2 turns.

I'd hope you manage it as they are relatively weak, same with Trebizond. they're meant to be quick grabs for the AI as the Holy land is a seriously tough challenge and i haven't even buffed the Antioch Garrison yet. Ohh, I forgot to shift the Theologians HQ from Jerusalem, I've just remembered it. Sorry.

[vonsch]

I'd hope you manage it as they are relatively weak, same with Trebizond. they're meant to be quick grabs for the AI as the Holy land is a seriously tough challenge and i haven't even buffed the Antioch Garrison yet. Ohh, I forgot to shift the Theologians HQ from Jerusalem, I've just remembered it. Sorry.

It's doable, especially if I concentrate first north, then south, on the east side. Don't even need the western troops. And unless someone is REALLY poor (maybe Russia, Poland, Hungary), I think 0 starting cash is okay. Just a shocker.

The guild not a big deal since I probably won't pass 30 turns in testing.


(Eyes Constantinople...) I wonder if I could...

Treb falls turn 5. Main problem is just getting there. Will catch Tbilisi on the way back to Yerevan. Baghdad beseiged, will let that one sally. Big walls and all that.

Byzzies failed first try at Smyrna. They keep that up and I'll steal Constantinople! Second attmpt failed too. Byz has plenty of units, just attacking with way too few. Third time was the charm, but they started with too few units again. Reinforcements must have gotten there in time, but I missed it.

Bet you didn't tweak down seige engineer and architect.

Heh, the problem with Baghdad is it locks up troops as garrison for a while. It's close to minor city size. Fell turn 8. Tbilisi turn 10. Now to the serious work. First bandit spotted, turn 11.

Council wants me to take Adana. Adana is worth a lot less than its neighbor, so... (turn 15) jihad on Antioch. Same turn beseige it with 8 HA and general and bunch of jihadis. Dare them to come out. No luck. Next turn two more generals join jihad in other regions (not too far off) and hire up all the jihadis. As soon as they arrive we crush it! Then we swing over to Adana for the 2500 florins. This is where the AI can't compete. It just can't make these sorts of little plans. (I'll probably have plenty of leftovers to hit a 3rd city too. Upkeep on ghazis and muutas is nothing, once you hire them. The main drag will be garrisons!

Oh, it's clear that Turkey is fine with 0 starting purse. Could put it in the hole 5000 and it would just slow me down 3 turns. But that IS a potential balancing tool. Since the AI gets lump sums each turn for a while, could slow the AI a bit in some cases too.