V1.21 Rebuild-ProblemFixer BETA testing thread

[Carl]

Alright, I'll try to make some comments.

I was a little surprised when I saw it because they are the second level infantry after spearmen ( and they appear no better) and because their stats when so different to their mounted version...

WOW, hadn't realized they where so far up the tech tree. Good catch, thanks.

I am at 1204 and the world is an interesting place... We hold a large empire in northeast Europe stretching into the steps. The Russians hold the steps, the Truks hold the land to the east of the Black Sea, South of them and stretching into Asia Minor is the Mongol empire. The Byz hold their traditional lands plus much of what was Venetian lands. The Pope hold most of Northern Italy including Venice. The Danes hold their homelands plus all of what was the HRE. The Hungarians hold a few provinces to the west of the Black Sea. French lands are divided between France, Spain and the English. Spain also hold most of Iberia including the former Portuguese lands. The Moors hold all of North Africa and Baghdad. The Scottish hold all of Britain and Ireland. The Middle east is divided between us (the Polish), the French and the Mongols. Egypt holds it's traditional lands and Arabia...

Thanks for that, useful info. Denmark is honestly turning into something of a problem, as is the AI Poland ATM. Gonna have to look into them as they seem to rip HRE and Hungary and Russia to pieces between them and from that point onward's they are nearly unstoppable for the other AI factions.

I have been at constant war with the Hungarians (and have recently had the resources free to actually go on the offensive against them). I have been fights the Russians for a while too and have force them back with many battles to their starting lands and further east... I was vassals of the Byz for a long time, but for now I am a vassal of the Danes.

We hold Jerusalem and Acre in the Middle East and have been fighting the Egyptians for a long time to keep them. We assisted the French in taking Damascus and the Mongols hold Antioch (I am allied to both the French and Mongols). This has taken some pressure off me.

I plan to secure myself against the Hungarians and the Russians before seeking Independence again.

Hmm, interesting tactic, becoming a vassal. How tough have you found the Hungarian Forces to deal with then? And if they've been easy, how much of that is down to the towers on cities/castles?

I.e. is Hungary a Major threat against you when you get to Field battles?

I have also noticed that Bombard are frighteningly accurate. Where they always like that or have you altered them?

Yes, Flaming ammo has very high accuracy, same with exploding cannon shot. Bombards ARE quite low anti-infantry damage compared to Cannon/Culverin/Basilisk's though, so these are definitely the more anti-personnel pieces. Whilst Bombards remain the better anti-building artillery.

Sorry I haven't had a chance to post yet Carl -- been quite busy with work recently and just today got the chance to dig into PF a bit. Anyway, started a campaign as Portugal (short victory conditions) on VH/VH. A couple initial observations / questions.

Thats Okay, you've got involved and thats the main thing.

- The zero starting cash is interesting. My understand was that it (along with the large garrisons) was meant to slow blitzing, but in the case of Portugal (income starts in the red even with max taxes), it has almost the opposite effect. You have lots of troops and little money -- you have to throw them at something immediately. The rebel garrisons are certainly buffed however, though that may have two unintended side effects:

I noticed myself recently and have tweaked Portugal's income accordingly.

a) The rebel AI seems much more prone to sallying (because its generally better than my initial forces in the strength calculator). This actually tends to speed up initial territory acquisition, as the player can often beat the sallying rebels (player has a general to help with morale and has calvary for formed charges in the open plains in front of the walls). Consequently, I found myself getting towns on the turn I siege them, without having to contend with the towers or starve the AI out. On the first turn, for instance, I sieged Zaragoza and the AI immediately sallied, leading to a heroic victory for me (700 killed, 90 dead). Maybe giving each rebel town a rebel general would help?

Perhaps, fortunately the upcoming patch is supposed to make sallies by the AI much harder to kill. That may help and I may be able to do the odd thing to help. A general for each settlement might help, but it's a lot of extra work to add in as each general on the map needs a different name and you have a limited choice of possible names.

b) Because of those big rebel garrisons, the other factions are much more tempting targets for early warfare. While its not great for diplomacy, I'd rather hit Cordoba and fight 2 units than Zaragoza and fight 12. Is there any way to encourage the AI to garrison better?

True, but this is more a British Isles/Iberian issue. Most places the other factions are far enough away that the rebels are worth grabbing first instead. Also the patch is supposed to improve garrisoning behavior.

- Did you change the mechanism for unit experience? After my first battle my general and 2 units of Jinetes were at 3 bronze chevrons each with only light casualties (both Jinete units were around 35/40 men left). Seems a bit excessive, I'll keep an eye out to see if it recurs.

That bit isn't moddable, I suspect you just got lucky or something. But let me know if it happens again.

- Diplomat/princess movement speed is wonderful.

Thanks.

- Spy/merchant speed seems excessive -- spies can now scope out 1-2 provinces in a single turn, and merchant "knockoffs" are now much more common (I use the ter, "knockoff" to describe the situation where a merchant is ordered to move onto a resource that is covered by fog of war at the beginning of the turn. If the merchant can reach the resource in the turn and it is occupied by an enemy merchant, the merchant "knocks off" his enemy and gets the resource without having to attempt an acquisition).

The Merchant "knockoff" thing you mention is something new to me, wasn't aware that was possible. For spies it doesn't bother me overly as their main job is to open gates and check the composition of armies/settlement garrisons. Something they can only do once a turn anyway. Thus i'm more interested in them being able to rapidly reach their target than how much actual running around they do. But if someone else has something to say on the matter, please let me know, I may well have missed some important point.

Anyway, having lots of fun -- great work!!! I'll keep you posted.

Glad your enjoying it.


I've seen all 3 waves of Mongols and no CTD. But something from Bangaroos first post stands out at me all of a sudden.

Its not on the first wave as they arrived a few turns ago.

AT first i thought you meant that the First wave had come and gone and the second wave was their/nearly their. But this sounds more like it was a very short time since the first wave.

Thats the actual CTD error that the Hotfix I sent out fixes. Be aware that the Hotfix is NOT save game compatible, the campaign script is only looked up at the start of a campaign, so if it's faulty then as the CTD causing one was then the fault will continue to exist in the save game data no matter how much you change the script file.

So to me it sounds like you applied the fix and missed my comment about it not being save game compatible. No offence BTW.

[saurial]

Just to clarify on the "knockoffs", it can occur in vanilla as well (but is much more difficult). This is exactly what needs to happen.

1) There is a resource that you have previously uncovered but no longer have line of sight to (you can see it on the map but its grayed out).

2) You have a merchant that can reach that resource in a single turn from his current position, even though it is currently under fog of war.

3) You click for the merchant to move onto the resource directly. He walks over to the resource, and it is revealed (along with the fact that there is a merchant on it).

4) However, the merchant will still walk onto the resource and displace the hostile merchant one square away. This is the same behavior always seen with agents because they don't assert a zone of control (you see this when you walk your diplomats past other diplomats, for instance). It just has an unintended effect in this case because its easier to defend against an acquistion than make one.

So... as you can imagine, this situation is just much more common in PF because merchants can more easily outrun their LOS in a single tun.

Hope this helps clarify.

Thanks,
S

[vonsch]

For spies it doesn't bother me overly as their main job is to open gates and check the composition of armies/settlement garrisons. Something they can only do once a turn anyway. Thus i'm more interested in them being able to rapidly reach their target than how much actual running around they do. But if someone else has something to say on the matter, please let me know, I may well have missed some important point.

Um, first, I like the spy speed.

But, what you say isn't entirely true. The scouting function of spies, the revealing the contents of a stack, is not dependent on an action. If you move adjacent to a stack you will be able to see all the units and their stats. So you can do that as many times as you have mps. This includes garrisons. Try it.

But the active "spying" that uses an action you can only do once. That's really only useful for seeing the family members' details. When you enter a town, you get that info also... and the placement of the spy inside (2 for the price of one!)

But to "train up" a spy you have to do the active spying. That both increases the field of view for that spy, and the chance of success on active missions. The FOV increases the range at which you reveal all units in a stack to examination also, I believe. (I haven't tested that empirically, but from my general play experience it seems to work that way.)

So the extra speed makes them really good scouts, but only a bit better as spies. But, frankly, with the number limits on spies and the counterincentives to spamming the tavern/brothel/inn lines, I use mostly towers for scouting. Except when specifically attacking outside my borders some distance.

So I don't find it unbalancing. It's more of a plus on the convenience end for the player that offsets the anti-agent spam of limiting the number to the number of building levels built. Instead of spamming 5 spies myself for advance intel, I can work with just one. Saves on lost agents too. I tend to tie up a lot of spies trying to prevent open gates . But maybe that's because I have been dealing with those Italian scoundrels most recently.

As I said, I like the spy movement. (also nice to be able to scout the Holy Land from far away without waiting literally decades... or Mongol hunt)

[saurial]

Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the disadvantage to spamming the brothel/inn line? I almost always end up doing it for the happiness bonuses in huge cities.

[Carl]

Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the disadvantage to spamming the brothel/inn line? I almost always end up doing it for the happiness bonuses in huge cities.

If you have a general in a settlement along with the Brothel line of buildings you have a chance of picking up a long list of various negative traits, the cumulative effects of which eventually cause said Governor to become so bad that the settlement makes less money, has a lower public order, and has a lower growth rate than if the Governor was not present.

In addition. Happiness causes population growth so Brothels do nothing to help Public Order in Huge Cities in the long run.

[Bob the Insane]

Hmm, interesting tactic, becoming a vassal. How tough have you found the Hungarian Forces to deal with then? And if they've been easy, how much of that is down to the towers on cities/castles?

I.e. is Hungary a Major threat against you when you get to Field battles?

.

It is not really a tactic I choose, it was a case of being at war with everyone around me. I had refused the offer from the Byz a few times but there came a point where I was being attacked by the HRE, Hungarians and Russians and the the Byz besieged Budapest with a large stack and then offered to make me a Vassel with their Princess I just thought, sure, I can use the peace on one border to knock out my other foes and then finally turn on the Byz. The fact that I was at war on all frnts was not just a problem because of all the constant fighting, but I was not trading with anyone and that was hugely impacting my revenue and thus ability to field forces. What was nice was vassalage with the Byz also got me peace with the HRE and Russians (I was alrady allied to the Danes). Which led to trading with them (execpt theRussians attacked me again shortly, which ended their alliance with the Byz. As the Hungarians and the Russians are both basically east of me I then moved to a one front war (forgetting about the middle east). That was basically the end of things for many years (while I made inroads against the Russians) until the Danes backstabbed me with the huge stack besieging Prague so i accepted their offer of vasselship figuring it would get me out from under with the Byz. So basically I am pretty secure to the west and south and all my enemies are to the east.

As for fighting the Hungarians.. They spam out knights, both foot and mounted alot. In field battles the Hnugarians are good on foot, their knights and Croat Axemen make short work of other infantry. But Polands strength is in Polish Nobles and the mounted corssbowmen. These cut knights to peices without taking hardly any casulaties. The Hungarians have made weak attempts at Budapest quite often and the Militia defenders and towers have always stopped them. The rate of fire from towers makes using ladders while the two towers at ether end of a wall section at operational a suicidal venture. I have found that even if a ram does make it to the gate the towers decimate the unit operating the ram. I did lose some ealry battles against them with footsoldiers, but nother will my missile cavarly. They are hobbled in that they now have only 4 provinces and they are all castles (and they have been like this for many turns which is why they have been more a nuisence than a threat and that made them lower proirity then the russians.). If it was not for the money script they would be utterly broke. However digging them out of those castles is going to be "fun"...

I think my next campaign will be as the Hungaries to get a taste for the difference...

[Bongaroo]

OHHHHHHHHH!!!! D'OH! Totally missed the non-save game compatability. Starting a new campaign now. I think I'm going with the Polish, they look to be in a tough starting spot.

[Carl]

OHHHHHHHHH!!!! D'OH! Totally missed the non-save game compatibility. Starting a new campaign now. I think I'm going with the Polish, they look to be in a tough starting spot.

, don't worry about it, the post in question got buried under loads of others very quickly, not your fault, I should have checked that first.

It is not really a tactic I choose, it was a case of being at war with everyone around me. I had refused the offer from the Byz a few times but there came a point where I was being attacked by the HRE, Hungarians and Russians and the the Byz besieged Budapest with a large stack and then offered to make me a Vassal with their Princess I just thought, sure, I can use the peace on one border to knock out my other foes and then finally turn on the Byz. The fact that I was at war on all fronts was not just a problem because of all the constant fighting, but I was not trading with anyone and that was hugely impacting my revenue and thus ability to field forces. What was nice was vassalage with the Byz also got me peace with the HRE and Russians (I was already allied to the Danes). Which led to trading with them (except the Russians attacked me again shortly, which ended their alliance with the Byz. As the Hungarians and the Russians are both basically east of me I then moved to a one front war (forgetting about the middle east). That was basically the end of things for many years (while I made inroads against the Russians) until the Danes back-stabbed me with the huge stack besieging Prague so i accepted their offer of vasselship figuring it would get me out from under with the Byz. So basically I am pretty secure to the west and south and all my enemies are to the east.

Ahh, I've just heard of some people deliberately doing, that was all, and thought maybe you where the same. know what you mean about trade BTW.

As for fighting the Hungarians.. They spam out knights, both foot and mounted a lot. In field battles the Hungarians are good on foot, their knights and Croat Axeman make short work of other infantry.

so if forced to fight them with infantry based forces you think they could give you problems?

I think my next campaign will be as the Hungary's to get a taste for the difference...

I'll look forward to it.


1.24 is coming along nicely. i fixed the Bug but I've spent the last couple of days putting together a 1.2 patch compatible version, (this is currently labeled V1.25), from the files from the unofficial version. However a few balance issues have turned up in 1.24, so it's delayed again, (I've been tweaking a number of building effects and it resulted in too much income, so i needed to cut that down and went a bit far the first time round). They're nearly fixed, so if no news shows tomorrow about the patch I'll probably release it then.

[saurial]

An update on the Portugal campaign...

Turn 50 or so...

The world is at peace, oddly enough. Not total peace, but I think the Byzantines are fighting Venice, and thats it. AI has expanded superbly, with Byz holding 9 provinces, HRE 8, Denmark 7, and Venice 6. But it looks like the "trusted alliances" are freezing things up -- lots of factions have Immaculate reputations and there are several AI-AI alliances (HRE, Venice, and Milan are in an alliance love triangle). They are also all allied with me. If thats not it, I'm not sure what else explains it.

Spain grabbed Valencia before I could -- I was impressed. They're bisecting Portugal (3 territories above, 4 below). However, they don't have any land routes to other factions and don't seem to think of using ships... they just have a few full stacks sitting in their territories. Can they be encouraged to try out naval warfare?

Growth may need a little upward tweak -- my major focus on the moment is crusading generals against Moorish cities in order to raise chivalry and then redeploying them to castles/cities for governing (done it twice now with 4 generals total). Even with the level 3 farm upgrades + grain exchange, I get no more than 2% growth from my cities (on normal taxes). Needless to say, taxes are normal across the empire.

Merchant earnings may need to get turned down -- even with just iron in Iberia, a merchant more than pays for itself in 3 turns (getting 200-250 from iron). With the increased speed, Timbuktu is also a little too accessible, and the thousands in income there are as large as my entire tax base.

Still having fun -- its nice not to be the top dog. Maybe I'll attack someone and see if that shakes everyone up a bit.

Thanks,
S

[Carl]

Heads up guys, i'm uploading V1.24 to FileFront now.

[Carl]

Alright, the Links are out for V1.24 now.


The main comments are that i need an opinion on the economic situation ATM. As noted earlier I've tweaked the various building to pieces and the amount of money from individual sources a lot too. However the economic balance may easily be off. It seems to be OK ATM to me, but I need a second opinion.

I also need opinions on growth and I've moved a few units around in tech trees and played with stats a Little in a couple of places.

I've tweaked the AI again too, but the economic changes seem to have undone some of the good work for some reason, not sure why.

I've also added numerous extra merchant recourses and slightly reduced merchant income.

Recruitment slots have also been tweaked, in particular he highest levels of Barracks, (city AND Castle), Stables, and Archery Ranges, as well as some guilds give bonus recruitment slots. In addition I've tweaked Italian Spear Militia and put cities and above back to three recruitment slots. It was the ISM that made me drop them to 2 in the first place, with ISM being identical nearly to Armored Sergent's it was practically pointless building Armored Sergent's for the Italian factions, as a result the original change to recruitment slots was meant to make ISM less attractive due to being harder to replace. Now that they are slightly weaker though this no longer applies and I can safely put the slots back in.

Don't worry ISM are still VERY good Militia units, they just aren't as good as they used to be.

Other things have doubtless been tweaked that I've forgotten or that aren't o the list.

Anyway i need opinions and thoughts as usual.

Any chance of convincing you to try Byzantine for me vonsch? Get your opinion on them, and see how they feel to you compared to me?