The Battle of Bibracte - 58 BC

**Ypoknons** · 03-08-2007, 16:29

There is a Helvetii unit in the game - the Mori Gaesum. I'm not sure if they were at Bibracte, though.

**CountArach** · 03-09-2007, 02:33

Originally Posted by Ypoknons

There is a Helvetii unit in the game - the Mori Gaesum. I'm not sure if they were at Bibracte, though.

I believe that they were because Caesar mentions his enemy forming a "phalanx". The Mori Gaesum use a sort of tightly grouped men that represent a phalanx.

**PSYCHO V** · 03-09-2007, 05:07

Originally Posted by Anthony

The revolt was spawned by his conspiring with Dumnorix and Casticus to split Gaul between the three of them; the people didn't like the plan, and plotted to arrest him, try him, and have him executed if found guilty. He discovered that, rose an army of 10,000 men, but died while they were massing, likely due to suicide. The Helvetii went ahead with the migratory plan though.

It needs to be mentioned that the civil war had all but destroyed Gaul. Many Gauls had long been aware of the state of weakness they endured and thus aware of the growing threat of intervention from their neighbours, eg. Ariovistus (Germans) and Caesar (Romans). Both had desires to extend their hegemony over the beleaguered Gauls

Dumnorix (from the Aedui) and Casticus (from the Sequani) were (for want of a better term) proto-Gallic patriots who went against the directives of their own executive Councils, Councils that comprised of the ‘wealthy’ nobility who were stubbornly caught up in the struggle for commercial power / Gallic factional feud.

Dumnorix and Casticus (amongst others) were aware of the bigger picture, of a common threat from without. They sought to bring the warring sides (Aedui Confederacy and Southern Alliance) together and with the help of the Helvetii (one of the last bastions of Gallic power having been spared the sufferings of the civil conflict), hoped to fend off these external threats and preserve Gallic liberty.

Whilst Caesar naturally seeks to paint these figures (Dumnorix and Casticus) as self interested power grabbing rebels (to take attention off his own self seeking / unprovoked aggression) and play down his butchering of a free peoples, the historical record does not bare this out. Even Caesar’s own later commentary on Dumnorix demonstrates this. Further, even the Pro-Roman Uergobretos (magistrate) of the Aedui, Diviciacus (Dumnorix’s brother), a Druid and close friend of Rome (in particular Cicero), appears to have given nominal support to his brother for reasons other than the kinship that Caesar cites as an excuse for his nominal ally. An ally who thought he could reason with Roman greed.

Orgetorix’s motives require one to be a little more circumspect. He already enjoyed a position of substantial power among his people and could possibly have seized power for himself in time without having to move the entire Helvetii nation enmasse.
Caesar states that the Helvetii tried him for treason, claiming they did so because he wished to be king. The Helvetii had long been a proto-republic with an elected council, but internal strife had beset the nation and some scholars suspect that the council feared that the people would rise and elect a War Leader like Orgetorix, thus severely (albeit temporarily) diminishing their own power … and revenue. Interestingly enough, even after Orgetorix was killed, the people nonetheless followed his plan. Something that Caesar glosses over.

Originally Posted by Ypoknons

There is a Helvetii unit in the game - the Mori Gaesum. I'm not sure if they were at Bibracte, though.

The Mori Gaesum unit in EB is a fancy version of the standard Helvetii unit one would expect to see at Bibracte. It has been depicted like this due to it's primary function in the EB as a mercenary / specialised regional unit
eg. At Bibracte, one wouldn't expect to see every warrior wearing a helmet and breatplate, etc.
But it would suffice. Unfortunately we didn't get around to adding more units. The next closest representation would be EB's belgae but with darker hair and different shield ensignia.

my2bob

**abou** · 03-09-2007, 05:32

So theoretically, I could make it so that each contingent fighting against a legion would have 1 Mori Gaesum and some Belgae? What about Lugoe (sp)?

**PSYCHO V** · 03-09-2007, 06:11

Originally Posted by abou

So theoretically, I could make it so that each contingent fighting against a legion would have 1 Mori Gaesum and some Belgae? What about Lugoe (sp)?

Yup. Don't get me wrong, Belgae are still different to Helvetii, but they are the best we have available. Lugoae aren't really appropriate. You could augment the forces with a few Arverni Bagaudas as light troops and maybe a unit of Belgae cav..

my2bob

**abou** · 03-09-2007, 06:14

This certainly helps. I think a proxy unit is not that much of a problem; especially since EB itself is not finished.

From my understanding it doesn't seem like any side used cavalry in this battle. Caesar certainly had two contingents, but they were only guarding the camp.

What about the Boii and Tulingi?

**abou** · 03-14-2007, 03:48

Currently toying around with the Roman forces. I am debating whether it is worth it to include the two inexperienced legions which were placed on the top of the hill as part of battle. Historically they never participated and even in the event of them being needed I can't help but think that all they would do is flee. If I did this it could do two things: the first of which is leave more room for cavalry and light infantry units, which could very well have participated in the battle if necessary; the second is that I don't have to attach Caesar to any of the main units and just leave him with a small bodyguard unit, which will allow him to be much more mobile and boost the morale of units. Then again, I might not even include the cavalry and light infantry as they never participated in the fighting at all. If anything they would have just covered the retreat of the legion's baggage.

So the following are definite:

Legio VII
First Line - Cohors Reformata (160)
Second Line - Cohors Reformata (120)
Third Line - Cohors Reformata (120)

Legio VIII
First Line - Cohors Reformata (160)
Second Line - Cohors Reformata (120)
Third Line - Cohors Reformata (120)

Legio IX
First Line - Cohors Reformata (160)
Second Line - Cohors Reformata (120)
Third Line - Cohors Reformata (120)

Legio X
First Line - Cohors Reformata (160)
Second Line - Cohors Reformata (120)
Third Line - Cohors Reformata (120)

For those reading who are curious as to why the lines are setup the way they are, you can refer to this post.

If I do include Legio XI and Legio XII and the cavalry with light infantry I will need to put Caesar with one of the legions in the main line. It will most likely be with Legio X, but I have the distinct impression that Caesar was ranging along the battle line encouraging his troops like all good Roman generals. Some more mulling over this will be necessary.

**abou** · 03-15-2007, 19:31

What to do about the Helvetii? Caesar doesn't seem to do much to fully describe the forces except for the phalanx (read: Mori Gaesum); however, those are really just nobles and therefore just a fraction of the total - a fraction which apparently were routed by a barrage of pila. I imagine that the rest were "Belgae" and other light units. All together the Helvetii will total about the number of Romans (including the non-participating legions, cavalry, and light troops).

There will be four Mori Gaesum, which will line-up opposite of the corresponding legion. Behind them will be the other units of the Helvetii.

Now to just figure out how to work with the 15,000 Boii and Tulingi - the only solid number that Caesar gives in the description of the battle. Also, the battle is described as starting in the late afternoon and continuing into the night with bitter fighting around the Helvetian wagon laager. If I can get the timing correct, expect a partial night battle.