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Thread: The Movie 300

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default The Movie 300

    Given the film is opening in the U.S. I thought I would repost what follows. I had originally posted this in the Entrance Hall.

    This is a piece written by the Classicist Victor David Hanson on the upcoming film and the proper perspective when it comes to historicity and narrative.

    Victor Davis Hanson was educated at the University of California , Santa Cruz (BA, Classics, 1975), the American School of Classical Studies (1978-79) and received his Ph.D. in Classics from Stanford University in 1980. Hanson is a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University , a professor emeritus at California University , Fresno , and a nationally syndicated columnist for Tribune Media Services. He has written or edited 16 books, including Warfare and Agriculture in Classical Greece (1983; paperback ed. University of California Press, 1998); The Western Way of War (Alfred Knopf, 1989; 2d paperback ed. University of California Press, 2000); Hoplites: The Ancient Greek Battle Experience (Routledge, 1991; paperback., 1992); The Other Greeks: The Family Farm and the Agrarian Roots of Western Civilization (Free Press, 1995; 2nd paperback ed., University of California Press, 2000); Fields without Dreams: Defending the Agrarian Idea (Free Press, 1996; paperback, Touchstone, 1997); The Land Was Everything: Letters from an American Farmer (Free Press, 2000); The Wars of the Ancient Greeks (Cassell, 1999; paperback, 2001); The Soul of Battle (Free Press, 1999, paperback, Anchor/Vintage, 2000); Carnage and Culture (Doubleday, 2001; Anchor/Vintage, 2002); An Autumn of War (Anchor/Vintage, 2002); Mexifornia: A State of Becoming (Encounter, 2003), Ripples of Battle (Doubleday, 2003), Between War and Peace (Random House, 2004) and A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War, published by Random House in October 2005.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "The phrase “300 Spartans” evokes not only the ancient battle of Thermopylae, but also the larger idea of fighting for freedom against all odds — a notion subsequently to be enshrined through some 2500 years of Western civilization.

    Even today we remember the power of the Spartans’ defiance. “Come and take them,” they tell the Persian emissaries who demand their arms. “Then we will fight in the shade,” the Spartans boast when warned that the horde of Persian arrows will soon blot out the very sunlight. “Go tell the Spartans that here we lie obedient to their commands” the tombstone of their dead reads.

    In 480, an enormous force of more than a quarter-million Persians under their King Xerxes invaded Greece, both to enslave the free city-states, and to avenge the Persian defeat a decade earlier at Marathon. The huge force of ships and soldiers proved unstoppable on its way west and southward until it reached the narrow pass at Thermopylae (“The Warm Gates”) in northern Greece. There a collection of 7,000 Greeks had blocked the way. They hoped to stop Xerxes’ horde outright — or at least allow enough time for their fellow countrymen to their rear to mobilize a sufficient defense of the homeland.

    Among the many Greek contingents was a special elite force of 300 Spartans under their King Leonidas — a spearhead that offered the other Greeks at Thermopylae some promise that they could still bar the advance of the vastly superior invader. And that hope proved real for two days of hard fighting. The vastly outnumbered, but heavily-armed Greek infantrymen in their phalanx — taking advantage of the narrow terrain and their massed tactics — savagely beat back wave after wave of advancing Persian foot soldiers and cavalry.

    But on the third day of battle, Leonidas’s Greeks were betrayed by a local shepherd Ephialtes, who showed the Persians an alternate route over the mountains that led to the rear of the Greek position. When he realized that he was nearly surrounded, Leonidas nevertheless made a critical decision to stay and fight, while ordering most of the other various allies to flee the encirclement to organize the growing Greek resistance to the south.

    Meanwhile the King and his doomed 300 Spartans, together with other small groups of surrounded Thespians and Thebans, would indeed battle to buy the Greeks time. They ranged further out from the pass on this third and last day of battle — at first with spears and swords, finally with teeth and nails —killing scores more of Persians. The last few Spartan survivors were buried under a sea of Persian arrows. The body of Leonidas was found among the corpses, his head soon impaled on a stick as a macabre reminder of the wages of resistance to the Great King of Persia.

    The Greeks took encouragement from the unprecedented sacrifice of a Spartan King and his royal guard on their behalf. And so a few weeks later at the sea battle of Salamis near Athens — and then again the next year at the great infantry collision on the plains of Plataea — the Greeks defeated, and eventually destroyed, the Persian invaders. The rallying cry of the victors was Thermopylae, the noble sacrifice of the final stand of the outnumbered Greeks, and especially the courage of the fallen Three Hundred Spartans under King Leonidas.

    So almost immediately, contemporary Greeks saw Thermopylae as a critical moral and culture lesson. In universal terms, a small, free people had willingly outfought huge numbers of imperial subjects who advanced under the lash. More specifically, the Western idea that soldiers themselves decide where, how, and against whom they will fight was contrasted against the Eastern notion of despotism and monarchy — freedom proving the stronger idea as the more courageous fighting of the Greeks at Thermopylae, and their later victories at Salamis and Plataea attested.

    Greek writers and poets such as Simonides and Herodotus were fascinated by the Greek sacrifice against Xerxes, and especially the heroism of Leonidas and his men. And subsequently throughout Western literature poets as diverse as Lord Byron and A.E. Houseman have likewise paid homage to the Spartan last stand — and this universal idea of Western soldiers willing to die as free men rather than to submit to tyranny. Steven Pressfield’s novel Gates of Fire and the earlier Hollywood movie The 300 Spartans both were based on the Greek defense of the pass at Thermopylae.

    Recently, a variety of Hollywood films — from Troy to Alexander the Great — has treated a variety of themes from classical Greek literature and theater. But 300 is unique, a sui generis in both spirit and methodology. The script is not an attempt in typical Hollywood fashion to recreate the past as a costume drama. Instead it is based on Frank Miller’s (of Sin City fame) comic book graphics and captions. Miller’s illustrated novelette of the battle adapts themes loosely from the well-known story of the Greek defense, but with deference made to the tastes of contemporary popular culture.

    So the film is indeed inspired by the comic book; and in some sense its muscular warriors, virtual reality sets, and computer-generated landscapes recall the look and feel of Robert Rodriquez’s screen version of Sin City. Yet the collaboration of Director Zack Snyder and screenwriters Kurt Johnstad and Michael Gordon is much more of a hybrid, since the script, dialogue, cinematography, and acting all recall scenes of the battle right from Herodotus’s account.

    300, of course, makes plenty of allowance for popular tastes, changing and expanding the story to meet the protocols of the comic book genre. The film was not shot on location outdoors, but in a studio using the so-called “digital backlot” technique of sometimes placing the actors against blue screens. The resulting realism is not that of the sun-soaked cliffs above the blue Aegean — Thermopylae remains spectacularly beautiful today — but of the eerie etchings of the comic book.

    The Spartans fight bare-chested without armor, in the “heroic nude” manner that ancient Greek vase-painters portrayed Greek hoplites, their muscles bulging as if they were contemporary comic book action heroes. Again, following the Miller comic, artistic license is made with the original story — the traitor Ephialtes is as deformed in body as he is in character; King Xerxes is not bearded and perched on a distant throne, but bald, huge, perhaps sexually ambiguous, and often right on the battlefield. The Persians bring with them exotic beasts like a rhinoceros and elephant, and the leader of the Immortals fights Leonidas in a duel (which the Greeks knew as monomachia). Shields are metal rather than wood with bronze veneers, and swords sometimes look futuristic rather than ancient.

    Again, purists must remember that 300 seeks to bring a comic book, not Herodotus, to the screen. Yet, despite the need to adhere to the conventions of Frank Miller’s graphics and plot — every bit as formalized as the protocols of classical Athenian drama or Japanese Kabuki theater — the main story from our ancient Greek historians is still there: Leonidas, against domestic opposition, insists on sending an immediate advance party northward on a suicide mission to rouse the Greeks and allow them time to unite a defense. Once at Thermopylae, he adopts the defenses to the narrow pass between high cliffs and the sea far below. The Greeks fight both en masse in the phalanx and at times range beyond as solo warriors. They are finally betrayed by Ephialtes, forcing Leonidas to dismiss his allies — and leaving his own 300 to the fate of dying under a sea of arrows.

    But most importantly, 300 preserves the spirit of the Thermopylae story. The Spartans, quoting lines known from Herodotus and themes from the lyric poets, profess unswerving loyalty to a free Greece. They will never kow-tow to the Persians, preferring to die on their feet than live on their knees.

    If critics think that 300 reduces and simplifies the meaning of Thermopylae into freedom versus tyranny, they should reread carefully ancient accounts and then blame Herodotus, Plutarch, and Diodorus — who long ago boasted that Greek freedom was on trial against Persian autocracy, free men in superior fashion dying for their liberty, their enslaved enemies being whipped to enslave others."

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Hand Bacon Member ShadeHonestus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    In a show of solidarity with Thespians everywhere, I will boycott until the title reads "1300"!
    "There is a true glory and a true honor; the glory in duty done and the honor in the integrity of principle."

    "The truth is this; the march of Providence so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often only see the ebb of the advancing wave. It is history which teaches us to hope."

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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    I agree with his analysis. The significance of Thermopylae isn't really in the details of the battle itself. Many historians argue over how many Persians were in the invading army. Estimates range from 2 million to 25,000 and everywhere inbetween, but the actual answer means nothing and would not chance the meaning of Thermopylae. We remember it today, not because of the victory or the defeat, but because of the psychological impact it had on the rest of Greece. It is therefore entirely appropriate that Thermopylae continue to be remembered in popular culture in this psychological manner rather than in pinpoint historical accuracy.


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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    I like Hanson. I read his book Carnage and Culture for college. And this is probably the best review one could read on the film if he knows what happened.

    Thanks for the article!

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    300 is a pile of manure and so is that man's opinion.

    The Spartans were fighting for themselves, they did not retreat because they could not, under their law. Yes, the idea was to buy the rest of the Greeks time but the fact that we remember the 300 and not those who died with them is a testement to the lack of a clear Pan Hellenic ideal.

    Added to which the Persians were not that bad, the idea of Eastern Tyranny vs Western Democracy is anachronistic in the extreme.
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    Hand Bacon Member ShadeHonestus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
    The Spartans were fighting for themselves, they did not retreat because they could not, under their law.
    Yes, and as part of the battle plan of Themistocles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
    Yes, the idea was to buy the rest of the Greeks time but the fact that we remember the 300 and not those who died with them is a testement to the lack of a clear Pan Hellenic ideal.
    The final stand was a rearguard action seperate from the battle as a whole. In fact it was the miscalculations by other Greeks, that were present, that forced the issue into a withdrawl rather than victory.

    The reason we remember the 300 in particular is that it is the epitome of Hellenic culture. The story of the last stand was humanistic, individualistic, and heroic, not to mention largely secular, while also maintaining the integrity to the Spartans' own ideals. This is the same reason the Illiad stands today as a work of that time and that place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
    Added to which the Persians were not that bad, the idea of Eastern Tyranny vs Western Democracy is anachronistic in the extreme.
    If nothing else, the lack of present Hellenic ideals in Persian philosophy and indeed their suppression is the Eastern Tyranny. The Persian way was much the way of making tomorrow like today, which is distinctly oppressive and non Greek.
    Last edited by ShadeHonestus; 03-09-2007 at 20:44.
    "There is a true glory and a true honor; the glory in duty done and the honor in the integrity of principle."

    "The truth is this; the march of Providence so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often only see the ebb of the advancing wave. It is history which teaches us to hope."

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    But most importantly, 300 preserves the spirit of the Thermopylae story. The Spartans, quoting lines known from Herodotus and themes from the lyric poets, profess unswerving loyalty to a free Greece.
    Strange. There are no Spartan 'lines' mentioned in Herodotus. Nothing about freedom either, which would have been amiss anyway since according to Herodotus, Leonidas stayed behind and died because he was inspired by an oracle, not by 'freedom'.
    Quote Originally Posted by PIndar
    Greek freedom was on trial against Persian autocracy, free men in superior fashion dying for their liberty (..)
    Greek autonomy -- maybe. Spartan autonomy, certainly. But freedom in the sense of autonomy was not the preserve of Sparta, Greece or any other nation. Freedom as we know it was nowhere to be found in Sparta. To suggest otherwise would be a total anachronism. If we want to stretch historical understanding to such impossible lengths (which I think we shouldn't), then fascism would be a better word.

    I didn't understand why a classicist like Victor Davis Hansen would sell his soul to commerce. Until I noticed that Hansen's piece is actually the introduction to the Dark Horse Comics book that is part of the '300' merchandising. They sell a Leonidas action doll as well. With sound.

    I think I'll stick with G.I. Joe.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    I'm a little worried; the initial reviews are all lukewarm. Oh well, I'm already committed, the babysitter's hired, and I'm going, even if it's awful. I shall have my popcorn! I shall have my Spartans in leather thongs!

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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Strange. There are no Spartan 'lines' mentioned in Herodotus. Nothing about freedom either, which would have been amiss anyway since according to Herodotus, Leonidas stayed behind and died because he was inspired by an oracle, not by 'freedom'.
    This was my understanding too. The Spartans were very religious and had absolute faith in and reverence of the Oracle at Delphi.

    One of the major importances of Thermopylae was that it was a major catalyst for the separate Greek City States to merge as the Greek Nation.

    I shall have my popcorn!
    The battle cry. "They may take our lives, but they'll never take our hot buttered popcorn."
    They can have my popcorn when they pry my cold dead fingers from the bag.

    We expect a movie review Lemur.
    Last edited by Hosakawa Tito; 03-10-2007 at 01:17.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Strange. There are no Spartan 'lines' mentioned in Herodotus.
    My friend, either your translation is flawed or you've misremembered. Dienekes is one simple example of a Spartan with lines mentioned by Herodotus. His line is noted in the movie's trailer as I recall.


    Nothing about freedom either, which would have been amiss anyway since according to Herodotus, Leonidas stayed behind and died because he was inspired by an oracle, not by 'freedom'.
    The Oracle stated that either Sparta would be sacked or one of her kings must perish. Leonidas' sacrifice then was to appease the fates and thus maintain a Sparta free from the barbarian horde. A desire to live under one's own mantle: Lycurgus, rather than a foreign hand is sufficient to warrant an appeal to freedom. It is the same sentiment that motivated a Vercingetorix, Boudicca or Dutchman spurning a Catholic Spanish King.*


    *Though the roles would reverse a Helot would understand this sentiment.
    Last edited by Pindar; 03-10-2007 at 02:21.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    My friend, either your translation is flawed or you've misremembered. Dienekes is one simple example of a Spartan with lines mentioned by Herodotus. His line is noted in the movie's trailer as I recall.
    Dianekas' line in Herodotus 7 does not 'profess unswerving loyalty to a free Greece' at all. He is bragging in the face of impossible odds, that is all.

    Besides, you are bound to know that Sparta has been regarded as a model and inspiration for fascist theorists and movements, and for a reason. Great minds like Popper, Russel and Toynbee have expounded this. In Volume 1, Chapter 10 of his Open Society Popper states six principles of Spartan policy that fundamentally agree with modern totalitarianism, bar one: Sparta was too tribal to strive for world conquest.

    As for the Helots, my friend; no one fought on their behalf in Thermopylae.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Dianekas' line in Herodotus 7 does not 'profess unswerving loyalty to a free Greece' at all. He is bragging in the face of impossible odds, that is all.
    Your statement was that "There are no Spartan 'lines' mentioned in Herodotus." This was an error.

    Besides, you are bound to know that Sparta has been regarded as a model and inspiration for fascist theorists and movements, and for a reason.
    This doesn't relate to Herodotus where the presentation is as a cultural struggle: disparate Greek polities coming together against the Eastern foe: the other.

    As for the Helots, my friend; no one fought on their behalf in Thermopylae.
    Quite.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    There are lessons in totalitarianism that can be learned from Sparta, but that does not make the mythos of Thermopylae any less important to history. Sometimes the legend is of more value than the truth.


  14. #14
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
    One of the major importances of Thermopylae was that it was a major catalyst for the separate Greek City States to merge as the Greek Nation.
    Meaning it was the catalyst that caused the Athenians and Spartans to start getting ideas above their station, and seek an empire by dominating other Greeks, setting an example that was followed by the Thebans, until Philip and the Macedonians swept them all away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The Oracle stated that either Sparta would be sacked or one of her kings must perish. Leonidas' sacrifice then was to appease the fates and thus maintain a Sparta free from the barbarian horde. A desire to live under one's own mantle: Lycurgus, rather than a foreign hand is sufficient to warrant an appeal to freedom. It is the same sentiment that motivated a Vercingetorix, Boudicca or Dutchman spurning a Catholic Spanish King.*
    And nothing about sending a token Spartan force to save face (having missed out at Marathon) while they tried to persuade the people that mattered that fighting a foreign war would be worth their while? IIRC they eventually solved that problem by having Spartan leadership of both land and sea forces. Of course, the Spartan naval commander was just a figurehead, with Themistocles in real control.

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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Movie was really cool.

    I couldn't quite bring myself to dislike McNulty though.

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    Resident Pessimist Member Dooz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Historical or otherwise accuracies aside, simply based on its merits as a movie it was terrible. If you care about watching a film that is good with regards to the writing, acting and directing, you won't find this one enjoyable.

    Only a few of the action scenes were mildy entertaining, but even those got old after the 3rd battle with the same choreography and directing. Way too over the top, the acting, the over-dramatic musical close ups every few moments, everything.

    I really wanted to like this movie, really I did. Even a positive outlook going in didn't help though. I walked out of the movie in a bad mood ultimately. I would not recommend it to anyone who is sensitive about movies. I would assume however, big fans of the comic or over-the-top action movies that are light on content might enjoy it.

    Oh and I especially hated the King's wife. Feminism jammed down your throat, choking the man out of you, just like she choked the man out of Leonidas.

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderland
    Historical or otherwise accuracies aside, simply based on its merits as a movie it was terrible. If you care about watching a film that is good with regards to the writing, acting and directing, you won't find this one enjoyable.

    Only a few of the action scenes were mildy entertaining, but even those got old after the 3rd battle with the same choreography and directing. Way too over the top, the acting, the over-dramatic musical close ups every few moments, everything.

    I really wanted to like this movie, really I did. Even a positive outlook going in didn't help though. I walked out of the movie in a bad mood ultimately. I would not recommend it to anyone who is sensitive about movies. I would assume however, big fans of the comic or over-the-top action movies that are light on content might enjoy it.

    Oh and I especially hated the King's wife. Feminism jammed down your throat, choking the man out of you, just like she choked the man out of Leonidas.
    Gah. Sounds like Troy. And any other Hollywood epics out there. Gah!

    *goes back to watching quirky arthouse films*

    In any case, the movie is the adaptation of the comic book which is the adaptation of the recorded event. While I heard the comic is good, speaking comic-wise, I have little hope for the movie. I'm quite sick of the glorified omglolbigbattlezwitlotsacglol movies Hollywood's been churning out these last few years, you see. Who started it, really? Mel Gibson?

    Edit: Oh, and the idea that the Spartans are some sort of Freedom Fighters tm fighting to protect all Greeks selflessly is a rather...romanticized...view of the stuff, really. Sparta was Sparta, not Greece. And they sure aren't fighting for "freedom" in the modern sense. Political freedom; state's freedom, may be, but convince me that the Spartans are champions of human rights...
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 03-10-2007 at 11:31.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This was an error.
    I might have written 'such lines' to make myself clearer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This doesn't relate to Herodotus where the presentation is as a cultural struggle: disparate Greek polities coming together against the Eastern foe: the other.
    Exactly. Hansen (and the movie director, apparently) twists it into something different. Spartan mentality is not a model or example for all time, as he suggests.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Well after seeing 300 last night I would have to say it was not as bad as troy. At the core, this movie isn't about spartans promoting freedom, it is about how badass they were in battle. It isn't about historical accuracy either, I think it even said the movie is based on the events.

    Once you get over the fact the the persians look like mutants, and the spartans fight in banana hammocks, the movie really isn't bad. The combat is not glamorous at all, it is very dark, and gritty. The movie depicts that the spartans were looking for a fight. Freedom is moreover an excuse to kill some more deformed persians- almost like a punch line.

    Overall I thought the movie wasn't bad, the scene where the 300 finally perish is a little corny, but going in we all know they are going to die anyway. This is definitely a movie you go see for entertainment, not historical accuracy, and if you go in with an open mind it is quite enjoyable.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Movie 300

    the spartans fought for the liberty of sparta and the political rights of the spartan citizens which accounted for maybe 5% of the population of sparta. when athens joined in, the most democratic state of ancient greece, they were fighting for the liberty of athens and the political rights of the athenian citizens. somewhere around 10% of the population of athens. so the freedoms they were fighting for was for the elites, the nobles if you will, they surely weren't fighting for 'freedom' in the modern sense of universal freedom of a population of a state nor were they fighting for freedom for the greek nation, simply because the greek nation did not exist.

    just 10 years before thermopylae, the ionian greeks had asked for spartan aid in their revolt against this same persian juggernaut and the spartans refused, for what did ionian independence have to do with spartan freedom. it wasn't until the persians had overrun northern greece proper that the remaining city states in greece began to start talking about a all-greek alliance and it was led by athens and sparta because they had the most to lose under persian domination. thebes, macedon, and argos all reached accomodations with the persians because it served their best self interest. as it was in the spartan and athenian best interest to fight the persians. so i think the idea of fighting for 'greek' independence was propaganda that was effectively and appropriately used by sparta and athens to further their own self interest.

    furthermore, the villain of thermopylae, ephialetes, the 'traitor' who betrayed a greek nation that did not exist suffered no consequences for his betrayal even after the greeks won. he died relatively soon after the events, but not from any persecution by the greeks but rather from a personal quarrel.

    within a few years of the decisive greek victories over the persians, as the athenians were gaining control of the eastern mediterranean, the spartans attacked the athenians, as the athenians had fought the aeginians during the war. so i don't think the persians was really a fight for independence in the modern sense of the word, either for individual freedoms or national rights.
    but i think it helped create a sense of nationality for the greeks for the first time.
    indeed

  21. #21
    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Interesting analysis, I happen to agree with it.

    I posted my impressions of the movie in the other thread in the Monastery https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=80894

    As for the freedom concept, well of cource it does not have the same connotation as today in exact detail. It was the concept of freedom from the then perspective.

    The most striking aspect of this is the coexistance of democracy and slavery. Democracy and citizenship was reserved for those that were not slaves.

    So when they talk about freedom, it is not a Universal freedom, it is a Freedom of the citizens of a specific City State, and since slaves are not considered Citizens they were not included in that freedom.

    Nevertheless, this all was done in a period where slavery was Universal. So it goes without saying.

    The notion of a free Greece was more in relation to the independent status of each city state and its citizens according to each city state's own system of law and traditions.
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  22. #22
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
    We expect a movie review Lemur.
    And you shall have one.

    The best thing I can say about 300 is that it doesn't look like any movie you've ever seen. It takes its blatant artificiality to new and interesting heights; don't think Troy or Gladiator, instead consider West Side Story or Little Shop of Horrors. There really is a musical, theatrical quality to it. Some of the scenes feel halfway natural, most do not. At times the effect was like watching a stage play, which was cool; at other times it felt like sitting through an R-rated beer commercial designed for Warhammer fanatics.

    The Greeks didn't look at all Greek to me. They seemed to hail from Germania or Britannia (northern Gaul at a stretch), certainly not from anywhere in the Mediterranean. Do I nit-pick? Then I nit-pick. I am small, and contain singularities.

    I can state without reservation that every deviation from the book was ill-advised. Losing "Stumblios" was a bad idea, and elevating the Queen (and her mustachio-twirling "I'm so very evil" foil) did nothing to advance the film. Hearing Spartan warriors yammer about "freedom," "liberty," "free men" and (weirdly enough) "the potential of Greece" was jarring. Having one of them intone about "a world without mysticism" was downright strange, given that the plot hinges on the utterings of a drug-addled oracle. Way too many of the new lines sound like they ought to be engraved in bronze and tossed into Franco's Valley of the Fallen. You know, they have that sense of We Are Making History. I was reminded of that B-film (can't remember the name) where the knight runs into the room and shouts, "Sire, the French have begun the Hundred Years' War!"

    King Xerxes is made to look nine feet tall, which may serve some purpose that eludes me. His lines are done entirely in a distracting voice-over. I don't care how bad the dude's voice is, I'd just like to hear it. God-kings don't have to have movie-trailer tones. (I kept waiting for Xerxes to say "In a world ...")

    The first battle scene was really interesting. They made an attempt to show phalanx warfare, so props to the filmmakers for that. Their idea was an impenetrable wall of shields ... which would then be broken whenever a Spartan wanted to make a cool flourish with his spear. After that first scene they made no attempt to show the phalanx in action. All of the battles become John Woo-style ballets of single warriors leaping around killing loads of Persians. This is made very strange when their allies join in and do the exact same thing, and the voice-over says something like, "They were more bralwers than soldiers, no order to it at all. Amateurs." Except that we've been seeing the Spartans doing the exact same thing for thirty minutes.

    Oh, that's another thing they added that did nothing to help the film. Since we need to know that the Persians are bad, bad I say, we get a scene near the beginning where they check out a village that has been slaughtered by nasty Persian people. A lone survivor manages to die gracefully, having just lived long enough to collapse in King Leonidas' arms. Anyway, this begs the question of how exactly they wound up behind the Persian army they're going to intercept. Frickin' Hollywood screenwriting rules, they never fail to irritate the Lemur.

    Moving on ... the actual book 300 is quite short, so the filmmakers pad in a few different ways. First off, they add scenes, which are universally bad ideas from start to finish. The other technique is to have the actors take a very ... long ... time ... delivering their lines. Example:

    In the book, when Leonidas sends off his tale-teller to recount their story of bravery and doom, the messenger asks, "Any message for the queen?" And Leonidas responds, "Nothing that can be said in words." Simple. Clean. Done.

    In the film version, the messenger spends at least twenty seconds working up to say, "Any message for ..." pause. Pause. Pause. "The queen?" Leonidas finally grunts. Pause. "Yes." Pause. Pause. Pause. Pause. Lots of pauses. "Nothing ... that can be said ... in words." Long pause as they both think about how important this is. Also some fiddling with a silly prop necklace that is supposed to have great meaning. Gah! Gah I say!

    If you've read this far (a doubtful proposition, but still) you can tell I have problems with this movie. Despite my ragging, I still think it's worth seeing. It looks like no other movie. It tries to be faithful to the book. It's a big-budget history flick, a trend that should be encouraged. It's bold and brash. It has nothing like the stinking mediocrity of Gladiator.

    Go see it. But lower your expectations.

  23. #23
    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    It seems to me that the movie says alot about spartans going on about "Freedom". Yet Sparta had thousands of slaves that were brutally terrorized by the spartan youth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i love the idea that angsty-teens can get so spazzed out by computer games that they try to rage-rape themselves with a remote.

  24. #24
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    A high body count and this movie gets an A+
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 03-11-2007 at 10:13. Reason: Ill chosen word
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  25. #25
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    I watched the movie today and to me it seems as if it was Lord of the Rings, Braveheart, and Troy all mixed into one. It had everything from the Gollum like hunchback, the elephants and rhinos and the strange cave troll like guy. Lots of stuff about freedom and saving greece, hell it even had Sith Lords acting as oracles!
    With all this it was without a doubt an entertaining movie to watch. I knew it would be no where near what the actual events that happened so I went into the movie with that mind set and won't comment on historical things any further. The cinematography and lighting was well done and as mentioned by an earlier post here, seemed to add a theatric quality to it. The battle scenes were entertaining and somewhat new in that the spears were for the most part used as the primary weapons unlike Troy in which Brad Pitt is almost instantly using a sword. This aspect made the slow motion scenes (of which there were plenty) a bit better to watch because for some reason movies don't show people fighting with spears. There were of course plenty of scenes with sword fighting, especially when the ninja monkey Immortals show up.
    The voicing was alright I guess, it was of course going to be in English and because they needed to make it foreign a whole bunch of English with a slight sterotypical Scottish accent were used. I wouldn't have minded this too much if it weren't for all the freedom speeches which kept reminding me of Bravehearts "Freedom!!!"
    For special effects I guess that's limited to the fire crackers (naptha things like in MTW I assume) and the arrows blocking the sun, guess it's 90% computer animated anyhow so I'm not sure what more to comment on this.

    The redeeming moments of the movie was for me the, if I may be so plain: the shots. After having to watch guys in speedos stab each other with spears it was nice to have the occasional thrown in there so the movie wasn't too 'manly'

    That's my initial review, perhaps after letting it soak in overnight I'll edit in some more about it.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 03-11-2007 at 11:06. Reason: Ill chosen words

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  26. #26
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    A high body count and this movie gets an A+

    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost
    I love the daisy.
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  27. #27
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    If critics think that 300 reduces and simplifies the meaning of Thermopylae into freedom versus tyranny, they should reread carefully ancient accounts and then blame Herodotus, Plutarch, and Diodorus — who long ago boasted that Greek freedom was on trial against Persian autocracy, free men in superior fashion dying for their liberty, their enslaved enemies being whipped to enslave others."
    That arguement refutates itself. Reducing it to "freedom vs. tyranny" is a simplification, no matter who does it. Not because Herodotus was who he was, a man with a name, we're simply to say that he's right. As far as historical accuracy goes many things have to change movie-wise and also respecting the subject of freedom vs. tyranny, I think it was more like Greece vs. Persia, it will be naive to think that this battle could be reduced on all it's causes and consequences to that cheesy frase. And of course greek freedom was on trial, the same would have happened if the invader was Greece: persian freedom at trial.

    Let's be serious though, nobody is going to see this movie to feel what the greeks felt, not even to live a modern representation of those supposed values at stake. People are going to watch it, because there's a lot of blood, impalements, sliced and pierced meet, but above all, there's a lot in the way of visuals, it's perhaps the most beatiful movie I've ever seen, so beatiful in fact that it makes every death seem like a portrait of a glorious moment, I could take every frame of the battle scenes and hang them on my wall. That doesn't mean that it's a good movie though...
    Last edited by Soulforged; 03-11-2007 at 21:21.
    Born On The Flames

  28. #28

    Default Re: The Movie 300

    Edit: Oh, and the idea that the Spartans are some sort of Freedom Fighters tm fighting to protect all Greeks selflessly is a rather...romanticized...view of the stuff, really. Sparta was Sparta, not Greece. And they sure aren't fighting for "freedom" in the modern sense. Political freedom; state's freedom, may be, but convince me that the Spartans are champions of human rights...
    hmm, I don't remember the movie claiming that. It seemed like that's what leonidas was saying to rile up his troops, doesn't have to be accurate in that case.

  29. #29
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Movie 300

    OK, I am going to go out on a limb here.

    This movie is not about Sparta or Thermopylae, it is about the self-image of the United States. Freedom from tyranny is what the U.S. is supposed to be all about, and so, apparently, is this movie. We are shown a contingent of martial Amerispartans who make a stand against tyranny on behalf of al the freedom-loving nations of the world. Their sacrifice buys us time to get (re)organized, to evacuate our cities, prepare our fleets for Salamis and constitute our phalanges for Plataea. The enemy believes in Ahura Mazda - that other God - and allows itself to be slavishly whipped into battle by a fabulously rich, cunning and merciless elite.

    Sound familiar?

    You may stone me now.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  30. #30

    Default Re: The Movie 300

    *throws stone at Adrian*

    It's an action movie.

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