SherWood Archers

[Eng]

How to get Sherwood archers as The English???
If u can get them at all in SP

[Foz]

How to get Sherwood archers as The English???
If u can get them at all in SP

The woodsman's guild allows them to be recruited. If you need info on getting one, check out Davebaby's Guide to Guilds in The Guild->New Members->M2TW Guides.

[pike master]

yu can only use them in mp if you are playing early or all eras.

[dumas]

One big gripe I have about Sherwood archers is that their upkeep/performance ratio is prohibitive. They're half the unit size of other archers, cost almost twice as much (3-4 times per archer) upkeep, and can't even set pikes in the beginning. Also, by the time you popped out enough archers to be offered a woodsman's guild, you probably have access to high-end archers which (in my opinion) are much better value. I can picture a few uses for them like guarding walls or tight battlegrounds, but I don't even bother with them anymore. /rant

[vonsch]

I am pretty much in agreement, Dumas. I tried them a bit and wasn't impressed at their performance to cost ratio. I prefer retinue longbows with the upgrades the WG gives.

[lars573]

One big gripe I have about Sherwood archers is that their upkeep/performance ratio is prohibitive. They're half the unit size of other archers, cost almost twice as much (3-4 times per archer) upkeep, and can't even set pikes in the beginning. Also, by the time you popped out enough archers to be offered a woodsman's guild, you probably have access to high-end archers which (in my opinion) are much better value. I can picture a few uses for them like guarding walls or tight battlegrounds, but I don't even bother with them anymore. /rant

Sherwood archers aren't mean't to be used like longbows. They are like battlefeild assassins or Hashasim, but with longbows. The "can hide anywhere" ability, small unit size, 2HP, and lack of armour are the tells. They aren't mean't to stand in a battle line. They are mean't to ambush and zip around letting off a few arrows where the opportunity presents itself.

[pike master]

the best way to use them is as reserves behind your stakes. if used to attack or as flanking units they are at their best. in a spearhead attack they lead the way to carve a path while weaker units come up from behind to cover their rear and flanks.

these guys are not skirmishers they are crack melee units with bows.they have the 2 hit points the forlorn hope should have had imo.

[dumas]

As far as I know, Sherwood Archers can't "hide anywhere" but are "experts at hiding in the woods". And honestly, I can't say that I noticed much difference between their ability in hiding in the woods vs. any other unit hiding in the woods. I guess they can spearhead an attack, but wouldn't any calvary unit be preferable for that job considering the charge bonus? Or even any dismounted knight units--they'll tear through Sherwood Archers head to head, shield bug or not.

Okay, they may have circumstantial uses like hanging around the back and charging when needed. Personally for their price, I'd rather have another group or two of Retinue Longbowmen (average around 3x the number) in the back dealing multiples of Sherwood Archers' damage in the back, and able to hold their own when needed to charge.

[Foz]

Agree with people posting they are for ambushes and melee flanking - very good at both. I would further add that one great thing about half-sized 2HP units like Sherwood Archers (though the same is true of bodyguards and others too) is that they skill up so much faster than regular units. They have better ranged attack than any other English archer unit, which means they consistently get more kills. So while the unit may not get as many kills as the higher end archers, they definitely get more kills per man, which means better XP, and in the end they gain performance boosts much more quickly and thus fight even more effectively. The 2HP means they can see much more flanking action than normal archer units, and again contributes to higher XP - each man takes a hit without losing any fighting ability, and may live through considerably more battles as a result, gaining XP along the way. It also means that man himself has more experience in one battle, because he didn't die when he was hit, and thus instead piles up more kills (kills that a fresh soldier would get in a 1HP unit). The overall effect is that the unit should actually be better than a unit twice its size but 1HP, since a dead 2HP man equals 2 dead 1HP men (2 hits were scored by the enemy on the unit), but they have the added advantage that numerous guys with 1 hit against them will survive the battle, where those are losses in the 1HP unit.

So, it is easy to overlook, but the half-sized 2HP units actually have quite a lot of good edges over their 1HP counterparts, and this is especially the case where they have superior stats.

[vonsch]

Foz,

But to train them and work them up to those exp levels, or even to use them, requires a lot of micromanaging. They aren't like horse archers in that respect, where (while micromanagin pays) you can target them and forget them for a while.

If you just use them as another archer unit, their combined firepower is about that of a retinue longbow unit. To shine they have to flank into a pinned unit (or rear attack one). And they are SO fragile, you have to micro manage them. If they are charged by cav or flanked in turn, say goodbye.

They are, to me, a gimmick unit. Fun to mess with when bored, but not terrible useful in the greater scheme. It's easier to kill generals with jav cav than try to do it with sherwood archers. At least jav cav can be ignored a few while handling some other things as they can do their attacks on skirmish. To flank with sherwoods you have to take them off skirmish and charge them into melee where they are prone to sudden death syndrome if the enemy reacts.

So, while they do have coolness points, that's not enough for me. Not until I discover a better use for them, if ever.

[pike master]

the trick is that one on one a lot of units will overwhelm them by numbers and wrapping despite their fighting ability. when you have a unit even peasants behind them to hold the flanks they are near unstoppable in an assault where you arnt taking on enemy cav such as a castle assault or forest combat.

a lot of that holds true for the forlorn hope which i still could swear before patch 1.1 they had 2 hit points but after the patch they only had 1. but i could have been mistaken.

[Chosun]

I refer to these guys as a "boutique" unit. Just agreeing with what many posted already. Don't really know how useful these guys can get but it's not looking too promising for them to be a part of any of my future English armies.

[Mega Dux Bob]

a lot of that holds true for the forlorn hope which i still could swear before patch 1.1 they had 2 hit points but after the patch they only had 1. but i could have been mistaken.

Considering the forlorn hope is Renaissance equivalent of a Soviet penal battalion don't you think giving it an elite status is kind of silly? They were there to take the bullet for the vetern troops.

If you want to use Sherwood Archers try the quick battles; anytime the English army is chosen they almost inevitably have Sherwood archers. They just look damn lame; English longbowmen in white tights, just like 50's Hollywood saw them.

[Tiberius maximus]

me i use them on the wings of my archer lines to take out the cavalry wings of the opposing, since they are very effective vs. cav

[Husar]

Considering the forlorn hope is Renaissance equivalent of a Soviet penal battalion don't you think giving it an elite status is kind of silly? They were there to take the bullet for the vetern troops.

I only remember Forlorn Hope with 2 hitpoints, they could annihilate generals!
And a bullet sponge wouldn't be made of people who could use two-handed swords because that took quite a lot of experience as far as I know. So they basically are the veteran troops.

[pike master]

my impression was that they were a form of dirty dozen. in example war experienced criminals who were offered an opportunity to lead near suicidal assaults with an assurance of not getting beheaded or hanged. probably given a mercenaries pay as well for more incentive.

but i could be wrong. but it sounds good nonetheless.

[Sentinel]

I accepted the woodsman guild series at Caen in my English campaign. This eventually resulted in the HQ and I produced a few Sherwood archers.

They are good units, but have one major drawback, that they could only be retrained a Caen where they were produced. As the main battlefront moved slowly eastward it soon became impractical to return depleted units for retraining.
As the campaign progressed I used other castle settlement for archer production. I concentrated all my archer production in just a few settlements, but was never offered a second woodsmen guild.
Eventually I stopped producing Sherwood Archers in favour of Retinue Archers that could be retrained anywhere.

[vonsch]

Good point, Sentinel. Replacements for special units that can't be built reasonably easily anywhere is a major deterent to their use. And I really hate to disband them because it takes forever to get them "home" for replacements if they have more than a little experience. That creates disincentive to put them into dangerous situations, which is exactly what makes special units worthwhile.

[Sentinel]

Another advantage of the Sherwood Archers is that their smaller unit size enables them to gain experience faster. Fewer men to divvy the kills.

This advantage is then lost by the fact it is so difficult to recoup any losses by retraining. You can only merger units back to full strength.

[Hollerbach]

I'm bemused by all this talk of moving units back to base to re-train. Why would anyone do this? In RTW it made sense, but not anymore. See This thread for discussion of this.

[TevashSzat]

In theory, these 2 hp half strength elite units would be just as attractive to use as other normal number units. Take the general's bodyguard for expamle, it has half the number of men compared to normal unit size, but the 2 hp and its pretty awesome stats makes it easily comparable in usefullness and effectiveness to other similar heavy cavalry.

[vonsch]

Nah, what makes general's bodyguards so attractive is the automatic replacements

[dumas]

Nah, what makes general's bodyguards so attractive is the automatic replacements

That and the fact that a unit of bodyguards tend to hit almost the same number of melee troops in a charge compared to a unit of other horsemen double the size, especially in an impromtu situations where the charge is not at the perfect angle.

[pike master]

now that would be a good idea. like say if you are in your own territory all your units slowly get replacements. that would be cool.

[zaher]

HI, my first post here, hehe.

If you take a close look at all english archers you will notice that in melee they use different weapons. Retinue longbowmen is only the one useing sword. They got high melee attack but not with bonus vs armor. Other longbowmens including Sherwood archers useing little hammers in battle which got bonus vs armoured units. If i am not mistaken, Sherwood archers got melee attack 17 with v1, making them more dangerous unit than Forlorn Hope, and i guess more dangerous than Jannichar heavy Inf .hashishim or battlefield assasins dont get bonus vs armor.
The problem for me is that i got headquarters in Nottingham and minor guild in Caen , and cannot upgrade it to major on turn 160. trained millions of bows there and still.. I got master Horsebreeders guild with Academy trained Demi lancers and train lancers with silver shevron already, but cannot get master woodsman, which is strange.

[Mega Dux Bob]

I only remember Forlorn Hope with 2 hitpoints, they could annihilate generals!
And a bullet sponge wouldn't be made of people who could use two-handed swords because that took quite a lot of experience as far as I know. So they basically are the veteran troops.

They weren't using those two handed swords for hand to hand combat.

http://miniatures.de/html/int/nomenclature02.html

verlorne Haufe (G)
Forlorn Hope Literally a "lost bunch" of Imperial skirmishers, usually armed with two-handed swords and halberds, who ran ahead of the army to disrupt enemy pike blocks. Musketeers and arquebusiers were similarly employed. The task was very hazardous, and these troops were written off as casualties as soon as they were comitted to battle.

They were for breaking the enemy's pike shafts

[vonsch]

Can one faction have both a master guild and a GM guild? Or does the latter count as the former also?

[Foz]

Can one faction have both a master guild and a GM guild? Or does the latter count as the former also?

That's my guess - probably counts as both, though I'm not certain. It would make sense though - if you were allowed to have both, you'd be stacking faction-wide bonuses most of the time, which I think is exactly why master is limited to one per faction already. HQ gives +2 to whatever globally instead of +1 like masters do, so it essentially is like having 2 master guilds, which seems like plenty benefit enough without throwing in the added ability to have another master guild on top of it. The notion seems further supported by the inability to attract said master guild while having a HQ of the same type - I too have tried this, to no avail. Looks like another good reason to diversify guild types.

[dumas]

As far as I know, you can have one Masters and one HQ per guild type, but not two of either. So even if you don't have a HQ of (for example) a Woodsman's guild, you cannot have two Masters Woodsman's guild.

[nikolai1962]

verlorne Haufe (G)
Forlorn Hope Literally a "lost bunch" of Imperial skirmishers, usually armed with two-handed swords and halberds, who ran ahead of the army to disrupt enemy pike blocks. Musketeers and arquebusiers were similarly employed. The task was very hazardous, and these troops were written off as casualties as soon as they were comitted to battle.

Interesting. Didn't know that.

The "forlorn hope" i'd read about in english military history was the name given to a group of volunteers who'd go first into the breach of a city assault. They were paid a very large bounty as the death rate was around 90%.