What happened to the Gauls?

[Caratacos]

@Caractos:Yes there was an Roman break away empire that called itself the "Gallic Empire". However, this was more about political backing than cultural recognition. The Imperator that rebelled was named Postumus(Marcas Cassianius Latinius)and for awhile he adopted the title "RESTITVTOR GALLIAR(um?)" which means "The Restorer of the Gauls". But, after awhile he changed that motto to "ROMA AETERNA" along with "RESTITVTOR ORBIS" among others so he really didn't relate to the Gauls that much though he might have been one himself he was very romanized.

I agree with you (about the political backing vs cultural indentifaction as reason for its inception). But in reference to the topic of the thread i thought it would be an important example to illustrate that the gauls didn't dissapear they just became romanised. Though i think the fact that Postumus chose "Restorer of the gauls" is evidence enough for a substantial amount of cultural/ethnic identification-- no matter how romanised they had become. The fact that he changed his motto probably had something to do with the fact that he was Emperor of more than just gauls as apposed to the fact that he didn't identify with gauls.

[The Celt]

I agree with you (about the political backing vs cultural indentifaction as reason for its inception). But in reference to the topic of the thread i thought it would be an important example to illustrate that the gauls didn't dissapear they just became romanised. Though i think the fact that Postumus chose "Restorer of the gauls" is evidence enough for a substantial amount of cultural/ethnic identification-- no matter how romanised they had become. The fact that he changed his motto probably had something to do with the fact that he was Emperor of more than just gauls as apposed to the fact that he didn't identify with gauls.

I fully agree. From what I read about Postumus he was looking to intrude on the "legitimate" Emporer in Rome hence the change in titles.(Unfortunately for him that was not a smart move)

[Watchman]

Eh, wasn't "Gaul" also a geographical and adminstrative term for the region and its inhabitants ? I've never heard of the Romans even having tried to rename the place, and why would they anyway ?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Wasn't "Gaul" a Roman word anyways?

[Watchman]

Dunno. What'd the hairy barbarian fellows call it ?

[Anthony]

Gaul may be from the old Celtic word 'Gelh', 'Powerful', or is maybe derived from the Gallos river (many Gallic tribes had hydronyms). Timaeus I think it was applied the origin of 'gala', 'milk', for the name, referencing their relatively (to Greeks) pale skin.

[Alkiviadis]

In English..France is France.
In other languages?
I mean in Greece for example is Gallia,in Italy Francia...
Which is the memory for other countries?

[Kralizec]

It's Frankrijk and Frankreich in Dutch and German respectively, the meaning of wich should be fairly obvious.

[caravel]

The Romans called it "Gallia" I believe. It was divided into provinces.

In England, the Angles and Saxons killed the men and married the women. At least that is what I have heard. So the genetic pool should be much "germanized", whatever that means. And remember that the Normans were genetically Germans too, although coming from France (after they came to France from Scandinavia).

I have never heard of this. Anything I've read on Anglo-Saxon England does point to the intermarrying being very low, and the Anglo-Saxons keeping mostly to their own kind, AFAIK it did occur but wasn't widespread.

[Shigawire]

Don't forget, unlike the Saxons the Vikings were actually driven out within a few generations, it's unlikely the genetics had as much chance to "travel down" the social strata, hence less Norse blood.

In answer to the question about who Britons are, most a decended from pre-Celtic stock.

All good points. But please don't call the Norse "Vikings." Norse will do fine.
Calling Norse people "vikings" is a bit like calling the dutch/spanish/english of the 17th century to be "pirates." Viking means precisely the same as pirate. In fact, these pirates and vikings were outcast from their own societies, and were even hunted down by Norse kings and chieftains, and spanish/english/dutch kings. It's just one of the many misconceptions of "viking history" - yes the era is known as "viking era", due to their influence of terror. But the actual influence of these ruthless thugs is far lower than the influence of brute Norse military agression, which was an entirely different enterprise from "viking." The truth about these people is a lot different from the picture most people get.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, that's the point. It's hard to pin-point these markers without really rare, isolated groups of people. But now we know what that Icelandic marker means so we can trace the migrations of those people. And trace their impact on other peoples. That small group of people had a huge impact because they were the greatest explorers of their age. That's fascinating.

Just think about it, The history of all the people in the world is in our bloodlines if we can just isolate the genes.

Don't forget Icelandic people are just isolated Norse, viewed from that point of view the fact that a Norse marker turns up all over isn't at all surprising.

[Kralizec]

They also speak an extremely archaic form of Norse.

[Xtiaan72]

Of coarse I know it's a Norse marker, I'm got Vikiing blood myself! (My mother is native Swedish). Some of their coastal settlements were as few as 5 to 20 families. Such impact on the Anglo-saxon/ celtic gene pool was still a little startling for me.

[Watchman]

It's Frankrijk and Frankreich in Dutch and German respectively, the meaning of wich should be fairly obvious.

Frankrike in Swedish, I know that much - the Germanic relations of the language are pretty obvious, no ? We Finns use a derived form Ranska.

Incidentally, Germany is Allemagne in French AFAIK - and I'll eat the hat I don't have if that isn't a reference to the Alemanni (which, by what I've read, means roughly "all of them" - presumably a Late Roman impression of which tribes were swarming over the borders... ) of the Migrations...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

(My mother is native Swedish).

My grandmother was Swedish. And Swedish is the largest whole part in my mixed heritage. Yea Sweden!

Incidentally, Germany is Allemagne in French AFAIK - and I'll eat the hat I don't have if that isn't a reference to the Alemanni (which, by what I've read, means roughly "all of them" - presumably a Late Roman impression of which tribes were swarming over the borders... ) of the Migrations...

Weren't the Alemanni just one Germanic tribe?
Btw, what is up with naming Germany? Nobody seems to have the same name for it. I think everyone should just call it "Deutschland", I've never understood why English uses the Roman name for the general area.

[Eduorius]

In Spanish its Alemania and yeah it must come from the Alamani tribe.

[Pelopidas]

Alemani...this is not the "latinisation" of all-man, litteraly: " all mens " ? :]

I remember something about them, living in Alsace before being crushed by Clovis.

[Watchman]

Weren't the Alemanni just one Germanic tribe?
Btw, what is up with naming Germany? Nobody seems to have the same name for it. I think everyone should just call it "Deutschland", I've never understood why English uses the Roman name for the general area.

A federation, methinks. There were a lot of those over the years, and certainly if I was a chieftain who was about to go pick a fight with the damn Roman Empire I'd try to get some of my peers into it as well !

And for the record, the Swedes call it Tyskland. No idea why. We finns call it Saksa, probably because our main overseas connections there were with the region of Saxony or something. I know Hanseatic League traders were often called kauppasaksi (roughly, "Saxon merchant") back in the day. It may stem for some rather obscure word for some kind of profession or somesuch as well though, as AFAIK does our word for Sweden Ruotsi (either from dhruots, a term for the crew of some common type of ship in the fashion of the old Saxon keel, or some geographical locale) - which I've also seen suggested as the root for the word rus and hence Russia. Which we, in turn, call Venäjä - which is apparently derived from archaic Finnish terms concerning the netherworld and thereafter, ie. realms beyond a (imaginary) border, as well as the related word for a dead person vainaja (ie. someone who has "crossed the border")...

But really, the etymology of place-names is an academic field by itself. I've no idea where the name Suomi, Finnish for Finland, comes from for example, although looking at it I wouldn't be surprised if it had some distant connections with Sámi, the Lapps, whose distant ancestors our distant ancestors displaced to the north a bazillion years ago (as in "Stone Age")...

Head hurts.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

My theory is everyone should just call a country what the people in that country call it. (And watch stupid people everywhere explode with confusion.)

[Watchman]

Heh. I've read an anecdotal tale of someone asking Sir James Frazer if he'd actually ever met any of these savages he wrote so much about ? The story goes that Sir Frazer looked aghast and exclaimed, "Heavens no!"...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

All good points. But please don't call the Norse "Vikings." Norse will do fine.
Calling Norse people "vikings" is a bit like calling the dutch/spanish/english of the 17th century to be "pirates." Viking means precisely the same as pirate. In fact, these pirates and vikings were outcast from their own societies, and were even hunted down by Norse kings and chieftains, and spanish/english/dutch kings. It's just one of the many misconceptions of "viking history" - yes the era is known as "viking era", due to their influence of terror. But the actual influence of these ruthless thugs is far lower than the influence of brute Norse military agression, which was an entirely different enterprise from "viking." The truth about these people is a lot different from the picture most people get.

I believe litterally "Viking" means "expedition" and as such is perfectly applicable. I can find no reference to it meaning "pirate" being of Scandanavian descent myself it's not a word that bothers me (although, I'm Swedish rather than Norse or Danish.)

Norse means Norway and can cause confusion.

[Caratacos]

I find it decidedly ironic that this thread about gauls has been "invaded" by waves of germanic dicsussion (starting with anglo-saxons, Franks and now Scandinavians). Very amusing .


(in that it mirrors history... ahh if i have to explain it it's obviously not funny )

[Watchman]

I thought that sort of developement was normal ?

I believe litterally "Viking" means "expedition" and as such is perfectly applicable. I can find no reference to it meaning "pirate" being of Scandanavian descent myself it's not a word that bothers me (although, I'm Swedish rather than Norse or Danish.)

Norse means Norway and can cause confusion.

Nah, gå viking quite specifically meant a raiding expedition. Not that the trading trips wouldn't have jumped whatever targets of opportunity they thought their considerably lesser assets were sufficient for in the grand tradition of all seamen of them olden days mind you, but I understand the Scandinavians of the day made a rather clear distinction concerning the primary goal involved.

'Course, given the widely different requirements between the two when it came to ships and personal gear and so on, that's only sensible.

[Eduorius]

I think we all concluded that the Gauls were "Romanized" and that there are many Celtic descendant people in France.

What you think about Romans? How much do the Roman conquest of all the Mediterranean influenced in the genetic pool of the different populations? This were Roman descendants or just natives that were "Romanized"?

[NeoSpartan]

What I wonder is about the Galatians. They were in the middle of present day Turkey.

I know they were incorporated into the Roman empire, but I wander what happened in the centuries after. You know, after the fall of the Roman empire, the spread of Islam, the comming of the Mongols, and the rising of the Ottoman Turks.

[Alkiviadis]

My theory is everyone should just call a country what the people in that country call it. (And watch stupid people everywhere explode with confusion.)

Yes,but the memory for some people is different...
And i don't think that is very simple...

I was reading that France and England had a conflict for the name "Bretagne" (France division) because of this name see"Great Britain".

For Greece France is Gallia,because of Gauls...
Switzerland for Greece is Helvetia,because of a Celtic tribe Helvetii...

By the way...the name Switzerland...which is the etymology of the word?

[Krusader]

In Norwegian we mostly name people or countries after their own terms, but also many are named after English/Latin terms.

Germany is Tyskland which I still wonder why, closest thing is Teutons perhaps.

And while Swedes & Danes call Greece for Grekenland, in Norway we call it Hellas.

Switzerland is called Sveits & France is Frankrike.

As for conquered peoples in the Roman empire, most seem have been romanized a lot yet still being non-romans by blood. Many non-Romans were given citizenship, also as many non-Romans married into Roman families to gain citizenship protection.
Also I remember reading that some of the Roman ruins, baths and similar in England were discovered to have been built by romanized Briton kings & chieftains. By some generations many peoples would call themselves Romans. For example the Greeks in Byzantine Empire called themselves rhomaioi, at least among the upper echelons of society. Then you have Slavs who were settled in Anatolia by early Byzantine emperors and who later on called themselves Greeks.

As for Italy, I remember reading that 90.000 Lombard men settled there so Lombard blood is probably in many Italians' veins.

Also the Muslim army that conquered Visigothic Iberia apparently didn't have any women with them. Which meant that when these Muslim soldiers settled in Iberia and intermarried.

[Obelics]

In English..France is France.
In other languages?
I mean in Greece for example is Gallia,in Italy Francia...
Which is the memory for other countries?

are you sure in modern greek it is still Gallia? do you speak greek? If it is so, it's very interesting...

regarding the other names, while we only use Francia for ex-Gallia, we can use Lusitania for Portogallo (when we want to use a more sophisticated language), and Penisola Iberica for Spagna (when we want to refer to geographic of both Spagna and Portogallo).

Ah.... and Germany is still Germania.

PS: anyway a lot of synonimous are going lost, cause young people only speak the language of the TV, i bet if i go on the street and ask what is Lusitania, nobody can answer anymore. But if i say Portogallo, everyone know, but just because the football...

[Watchman]

By the way...the name Switzerland...which is the etymology of the word?

I've seen one theory suggesting "swiss" was originally an insult used by the South German Landsknecht mercenaries of their Helvetian Reisläufer competitors-cum-archenemies, meaning something along the lines of swineherd and/or "swine intimate" (as the text put it). Since, you know, a good portion of the Helvetian mercs came from the poor mountain regions and all, where that was a common profession.
The latter took it in stride and adopted it as a sort of honorary badge (much like the British "Old Contemptibles" regular army before WW1), in the spirit of "we may be Swiss but we still kick your asses!"

Or that's what I've read anyway. That one of the original three founding cantons of the Confederacy was (and is) called Schwyz might also have something to do with it.

[keravnos]

are you sure in modern greek it is still Gallia? do you speak greek? If it is so, it's very interesting...

regarding the other names, while we only use Francia for ex-Gallia, we can use Lusitania for Portogallo (when we want to use a more sophisticated language), and Penisola Iberica for Spagna (when we want to refer to geographic of both Spagna and Portogallo).

Ah.... and Germany is still Germania.

PS: anyway a lot of synonimous are going lost, cause young people only speak the language of the TV, i bet if i go on the street and ask what is Lusitania, nobody can answer anymore. But if i say Portogallo, everyone know, but just because the football...

Yep, all that is correct. Germania, Italia, ispania, Brettania, Mauretania, Libye, all that from modern Greek maps. Dunno. Must be byzantium that common Italo-greek history.

Yet we call Lusotannan Portogalia