Why are tactical battles mass chaos?

[bach01]

Actually, having "perfect lines" is a military thing. That's why soldiers are being drilled. Even today, most combat drills still focus on fighting in perfect lines. And other drills focus on being in the perfect line, and doing things at the exact same time... So I actually think that medieval battles were fought with very nice looking formations, so that the commanding officer could impress the ladies by making a perfect and exaggerated phallus formation....

Of topic
I really do hope that you are joking cause this statement is way out there. First: Military combat drills in stright lines haven't been practical since the arrival of the machine gun. The reason that the military still practices these drills has more to do with installing discipline then to drill units on propare comba techniques.
Second: "Ladies" on the battle field prior to the Civil War where most likely camp followers. Even in the Civil War the Ladies and Gentlemen that came out to watch the frist battle of Manasas or (Bull Run) were in for a rude surprise when the battle overran them causing mass panic amongst the ladies and gentlemen in attendance.
Third: Formations such as the Terico and the Phalanx, depended on formations and lines as their main strength. The reason the Terico was so devestating was the immense size of the formation, and the only way that it could move was if the soldiers marched in formation in lines under strict discipline.

On topic:
My battles tend to be rather controlled unless I'm in a forest, then it easy for me to lose track of where all the units are. I've actually come close to losing some battles because I wasn't paying attention to some units that were wavering and about to mass route.

[pike master]

formations get you to the melee line and if you can hold yours the longest it will benefit you but war is chaos. and eventually if a battle is prolonged there is going to be utter chaotic melees.

this is why reserves were invented. when a melee turned into chaos the commander could send in a well organized, formed up and fresh reserve that oftentimes would decide the battle.

its nice to think that well formed up blocks of soldiers fought and they usually held some semblence of a "battle line". shield walls and spear walls were used to maintain this type of order. but eventually a battle will turn into utter chaos once all reserves are committed and it is prolonged.

Guagamela according to jfc fuller was a battle that had transformed itself into utter chaos and confusion because of the huge clouds of dusts raised on the dry arid plain of the battle field.

even the phalanx broke up in places enough for iranian cavalry to push through a wide gap and alexander is said to have been utterly disorganized after routing the persian left wing cav. then turning inward to hit the unprotected persian left ran head on into the retreating iranian cav that had eventually been defeated by the rallied pikemen. at this moment it is stated the companions took more casualties than in the entire battle as the iranians fought like mad men fleeing for their lives.

it was after this and an attempt to pursue darius who had already fled before teh companion cavalry drove home their hammer that he recieved the message to aid parmenion.

Guagamela was an utter battle of confusion and alexanders generalship and ability to manage chaos longer than the persians did help him. but it also took tremedous luck to win that battle.

[Goofball]

Of topic
I really do hope that you are joking cause this statement is way out there. First: Military combat drills in stright lines haven't been practical since the arrival of the machine gun. The reason that the military still practices these drills has more to do with installing discipline then to drill units on propare comba techniques.

Not quite true. For example, at the most basic of squad level tactics when advancing to contact and coming under effective enemy fire, the first thing a squad does is the old "double-tap, dash, down," then form up in an extended line (under cover if possible) perpendicular to the enemy to win the fire-fight.

[HoreTore]

Of topic
I really do hope that you are joking cause this statement is way out there. First: Military combat drills in stright lines haven't been practical since the arrival of the machine gun. The reason that the military still practices these drills has more to do with installing discipline then to drill units on propare comba techniques.
Second: "Ladies" on the battle field prior to the Civil War where most likely camp followers. Even in the Civil War the Ladies and Gentlemen that came out to watch the frist battle of Manasas or (Bull Run) were in for a rude surprise when the battle overran them causing mass panic amongst the ladies and gentlemen in attendance.
Third: Formations such as the Terico and the Phalanx, depended on formations and lines as their main strength. The reason the Terico was so devestating was the immense size of the formation, and the only way that it could move was if the soldiers marched in formation in lines under strict discipline.

Yeah, I was joking

BTW, our combat drills ARE made in straight lines. I finished my military service 3 months ago, I'm quite sure they haven't changed it.... You start out with the patrol line. When you make contact, people spread out to both sides. They spread out left or right in alternating order. ie. first trooper stays, second one goes to his left, third trooper to the right, fourth left etc. The resulting formations looks like a V turned upside down. Then, the advance/withdrawal begins. One of the sides either withdraw or advance, and run up until the trooper in the middle of the formation sits down. The others then position themselves in a straight line out from him. The other side then does the same thing, but goes a little further. Like this(. means air, - means trooper):

----------.............
.............----------
----------.............
.............----------

If that was understandable... There is more distance between the soldiers due to machine guns and grenades, but the lines are still as straight. The reason is that if the line is disorganised, you risk shooting each other in the back...

[bach01]

Yeah, I was joking

BTW, our combat drills ARE made in straight lines. I finished my military service 3 months ago, I'm quite sure they haven't changed it.... You start out with the patrol line. When you make contact, people spread out to both sides. They spread out left or right in alternating order. ie. first trooper stays, second one goes to his left, third trooper to the right, fourth left etc. The resulting formations looks like a V turned upside down. Then, the advance/withdrawal begins. One of the sides either withdraw or advance, and run up until the trooper in the middle of the formation sits down. The others then position themselves in a straight line out from him. The other side then does the same thing, but goes a little further. Like this(. means air, - means trooper):

----------.............
.............----------
----------.............
.............----------

If that was understandable... There is more distance between the soldiers due to machine guns and grenades, but the lines are still as straight. The reason is that if the line is disorganised, you risk shooting each other in the back...

Sorry for the knee jerk reaction.

Yeah it was understandable, even to a former deck plate sailor. I was more thinking more of the close order rifle drill, which I was fortunate enough to experience in boot camp.

[Veho Nex]

Yeah, I was joking

BTW, our combat drills ARE made in straight lines. I finished my military service 3 months ago, I'm quite sure they haven't changed it.... You start out with the patrol line. When you make contact, people spread out to both sides. They spread out left or right in alternating order. ie. first trooper stays, second one goes to his left, third trooper to the right, fourth left etc. The resulting formations looks like a V turned upside down. Then, the advance/withdrawal begins. One of the sides either withdraw or advance, and run up until the trooper in the middle of the formation sits down. The others then position themselves in a straight line out from him. The other side then does the same thing, but goes a little further. Like this(. means air, - means trooper):

----------.............
.............----------
----------.............
.............----------

If that was understandable... There is more distance between the soldiers due to machine guns and grenades, but the lines are still as straight. The reason is that if the line is disorganised, you risk shooting each other in the back...

so what your saying is the my Airsoft squad is more efficent than the army in training... Wondering you guy start in lines A) Bad thing now adays say you have some slow people in the army and to fight a machinegun he tells every one to get in line... then 4 seconds later your don't have a squad anymore... but doing what you said there as in one gives cover while one runs up isnt as efficent as one might think but since this is a medieval chaos thread and such...

When you have swords you dont want to stay in perfect formation because 1 thats a bad thing and 2 that some times if your general sends i reserves in real battle you have to worry about being shoved forwards by your supporting troops and many men have lost their live because of this that why some of histories mainbattles have been lost by a specific unit getting reinforced when they didn't need it but im thinking of more China not sure about europe

Correct me if you wish

[Zasz1234]

I agree. When I played my first battle in M2TW from RTW I had trouble maneuvering and everything just seemed like mob tactics. Both sides just throw everything at each other and duke it out. Now though, it feels less chaotic. I guess I have learned to deal with the M2 system. Really it seems that the later troops hold lines and formations better than early troops, and that makes sense to me. The crummy town militia are just a mob compared to late period professional troops.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

As some have mentioned, depends on training and the weapon being used. Pike formations, to be effective, had to be disciplined, and had to stay 'in formation' - look what happened to the scots at Flodden when they lost this. Shield walls also required to keep to a formation - but they were also pretty defensive - i imagine they worked more through attrition. Using an non-polearm requires you to move around freely, (or polearms where unit cohesion isn't the be-all and end-all) which means melees with these weapons would be bound to be chaotic after the first engagement. Also, after a charge, it would be impossible to retain unit cohesion after contact, through momentum alone.

I like the chaos of MTWII battles - especially when you have 20 units scattered all around the place, some routing, some reforming, some not knowing what they're supposed to be doing - its the best bit! (eg: can you get that light cavalry unit back in time from pursuing a broken unit to save your outnumbered general from getting killed?)

[Foz]

The reason that the military still practices these drills has more to do with installing discipline then to drill units on propare comba techniques.

This is exactly what I thought when I first read HoreTore's comments on lines being a military thing. Certainly there is some application of it in combat situations, but the rigidity of the drilling is not even a remote consideration on the battlefield - you stay in a line, but no one is being super-anal about maintaining the formation absolutely perfectly as if you were on parade. I don't think there's any question that the ultimate goal of such military drills is to relieve a soldier of his individuality, and get him used to doing things the exact way other people want him to do them. The entire basis of the military is that you do what you're told when you're told to do it and don't ask questions, and IMO the tedious drilling is primarily aimed at conditioning you to be able to do that as effectively as possible, rather than actually being aimed at keeping perfect straight lines in battle.

[HoreTore]

This is exactly what I thought when I first read HoreTore's comments on lines being a military thing. Certainly there is some application of it in combat situations, but the rigidity of the drilling is not even a remote consideration on the battlefield - you stay in a line, but no one is being super-anal about maintaining the formation absolutely perfectly as if you were on parade. I don't think there's any question that the ultimate goal of such military drills is to relieve a soldier of his individuality, and get him used to doing things the exact way other people want him to do them. The entire basis of the military is that you do what you're told when you're told to do it and don't ask questions, and IMO the tedious drilling is primarily aimed at conditioning you to be able to do that as effectively as possible, rather than actually being aimed at keeping perfect straight lines in battle.

That's the reason behind the boring drills, however, the combat drills are there for another reason. They are drilled until you can do it perfectly in your sleep, and that means keeping the perfect distance, the perfect speed, the perfect angles, the perfect line. The reason for the drilling, is that in a real combat situation, you WILL do it like in a drill. You WILL keep the perfect line, you will do as fast as possible, and you won't shoot your buddy in the back.

Believe me, when the blood starts pumping, it's incredibly easy to shoot a fellow in the back if he strays from the line. That's why these things are drilled, to prevent anything going wrong.

Another reason, is to allow the squad leader better control - as he knows exactly where his fellow soldiers are from knowing his own position, he doesn't have to look around.

[JCoyote]

No one keeps a straight line in battle these days. In fact in more advanced combat training excessive regularity in your squad's movement gets drilled out of you. Modern combat has relied on variations of skirmish rules, which have been around at least since the US Revolution. Things like staggering out your squad so one shot can't take down more than 2 people... which just became several times more important with repeating arms.

Getting in a straight line in a combat zone? Don't make me laugh.

[pike master]

now these days there is not a thin battle line. an armed forces formation can be miles deep when all arms are included. but in urban combat especially it is not unusual for units to get isolated by the enemy who in turn can find themselves isolated. this is something that soldiers train for or i hope they do.

i have an uncle who was a bar gunner over in the pacific in world war 2. he said the japanese would oftentimes come across their field telephone lines and cut them. this has also been mentioned in rommels book "attacks" where his battalion would oftentimes find themselves cut off with their communication line cut.a very unnerving experience to have happen to you.

my uncle also told me about when his company found themselves attacked by a japanese bonzai attack and according to his description there didnt seem to be any battle line for that. he said it was tooth and nail, soldiers fighting with bayonet and buttstocks then to knives, fist, rocks. he remembered watching a guy struggling with a japanese soldier after the battle was pretty much over shout at him to shoot the bugger because of the predicament the guy was in struggling with the japanese soldier. so my uncle shot em.

[HoreTore]

Well, that drill I described is the standard one familiar to everyone who's been in the army. Believe it or not, it IS the way we fight today.

Note that it is in no way a close formation, as I said, there is enough distance(around 10 meters, if I remember correctly) between the soldiers to prevent a grenade killing more than one. The drill is used by patrols caught in an open field. In other situations, like streets, you have different drills.

You do need these drills. They are designed to give the maximum speed, protection, and fire at the enemy. Being able to perform it perfectly drastically increases your chances of survival.