Spearwall Polearms vs. Cavalry

**sapi** · 03-19-2007, 11:45

And regardless there's a fix floating around for that

**Carl** · 03-19-2007, 14:16

I'd include the Noble's armor upgrade if it weren't for the fact that a full plate upgrade requires a much more substantial investment and still only gives Nobles a +2 armor advantage - not worth the extra upkeep.

Well first your values are off. It's +2 Armour in theory for the Noble Pikeman Upgrade. Second, Terico's get Silver, not Gold Armour and start unarmored so they only go to 6 defense with upgrades, that puts them 2 behind to start with. and 4 after upgrades to the Nobles.

Heavy pike militia doesn't get free upkeep outside of cities, where pikes are best utilized. They can't match Tercios due to their lower attack, lower defense skill, lower morale, inferior training and greater out-of-city upkeep.

Well first the best place for pikes IS in cities. and in fact no army should really be outside a city/castle except when intercepting an enemy army or attacking an enemy settlement. If your using them for either (barring bridge based Field battles), then i respectfully submit that you have no clue about how to use pikes. Pikes are slow and easily shot up, they're best in a situation where their flanks are safe and the enemy has to attack them head on. The combination of tower fire and narrow wall breaches makes fighting out a siege with pikes inside much more advantageous to the pikes than attacking the enemy army in the Field before they reach the city. The poor Armour of pikes and their inability to move either quickly or attack whilst moving means they are best left out of siege assaults. SO in the end the Heavy Pike Militia should be free upkeep most of the time.

I'd also point out that the attack rate of Pikes is so high that in my experience neither level of training nor attack make significant differences to kill rate (unlike other units). It will help turn a close defeat into a convincing win, but if you where going to win anyway it doesn't tend to matter.

What does tend to matter a LOT is defense, especially Armour as thats the weak point of all pikes. Defense influences Pike Fights heavily as it means those enemy that get past the Pike points do a lot less damage, that really helps kill rates as extra men are worth so much more in a fight, it also helps keep long term costs down.However it's the missile resistance that is so important, Tericos can be shot up MUCH more effectively than Nobles/Heavy Pike militia, and no matter how fast you kill their missiles you'll always take some losses.

Morale is another paper stat, if your using your pikes right they shouldn't be moving much and should have their flanks/rears well protected, plus shouldn't be too badly shot up as you dealt with the enemy missile swiftly and promptly. Therefore, the reality is that the Pikes have few Morale Modifiers and will virtually fight to the last man almost regardless of morale. it only means anything when something goes badly wrong, and if that happens you may well have lost the battle as Pikes rely on carrying out the same fixed plan time and time again. Get it right and it's a near guaranteed win, get it wrong and it's a near guaranteed loss. It does matter, but not ass much as you'd think.

Don't get me wrong, Tericos probably WILL still beat the Heavy Pike Militia, but the Heavy Pike Militia are a good 40 Florins Cheaper so it's not exactly bad.

My definition of "best" includes value and availability, which I believe is as important as a unit's combat performance.

Nope, Spain has the Moors, Milan, France, Portugal, and Sicily breathing down it's neck. Scotland once it's dealt with England can concentrate the British isles on growth and economy, it's never likely to be in danger their again. The same cannot be said of Spain for some time.

My definition of "best" includes value and availability, which I believe is as important as a unit's combat performance.

Outside of SP I'd agree, but by the time you get to Pikes in SP your income is so high it simply doesn't mater with cost. And on availability the Tericos lose badly, not to mention the cost difference between nobles and Tericos is only 60 florins.

AND we haven't even looked at how the supporting armies square up, for Pike support Scotland is FAR better IMHO.

Before I go I WILL point out that I play with a Pike fix and that this impacts things. Extra attack and discipline mean far more when they switch to swords due to the much lower attack rate, but when you have 4 rows of pikes stabbing away theirs no real major effects as the number of attacks drowns the differences out to a large degree.

**pike master** · 03-19-2007, 14:46

whats neat is giving the pike militia there full armor upgrade to partial plate. they turn from wimpy troops into something that can fight the swiss pikemen to a standstill.

**Miracle** · 03-19-2007, 20:42

Originally Posted by Carl

Well first your values are off. It's +2 Armour in theory for the Noble Pikeman Upgrade. Second, Terico's get Silver, not Gold Armour and start unarmored so they only go to 6 defense with upgrades, that puts them 2 behind to start with. and 4 after upgrades to the Nobles.

Tercios go straight from unarmored to light mail, then heavy mail. That corresponds to +7 armor. Nobles go from +8 to +9 for full plate. Check this and this .

Well first the best place for pikes IS in cities. and in fact no army should really be outside a city/castle except when intercepting an enemy army or attacking an enemy settlement. If your using them for either (barring bridge based Field battles), then i respectfully submit that you have no clue about how to use pikes. Pikes are slow and easily shot up, they're best in a situation where their flanks are safe and the enemy has to attack them head on. The combination of tower fire and narrow wall breaches makes fighting out a siege with pikes inside much more advantageous to the pikes than attacking the enemy army in the Field before they reach the city. The poor Armour of pikes and their inability to move either quickly or attack whilst moving means they are best left out of siege assaults. SO in the end the Heavy Pike Militia should be free upkeep most of the time.

Pikes, if properly handled and if used in tandem with arquebusiers/musketeers, are excellent in field battles. It's a pity the Scots don't get indigenous gunpowder troops to complement their pikes. I find it odd you excluded bridge battles, because that's where I'd agree that pikes form an excellent defense. It's be crazy to use pikes for siege assault - anybody knows that - so for you to suggest that I'd do such a thing is insulting. Personally I prefer to avoid being sieged in the first place and destroy enemy armies in the field, but that's a difference in personal playstyle.

I'd also point out that the attack rate of Pikes is so high that in my experience neither level of training nor attack make significant differences to kill rate (unlike other units). It will help turn a close defeat into a convincing win, but if you where going to win anyway it doesn't tend to matter.

Against infantry (which pikes get a penalty towards) and against very high defense cavalry, it does matter. The pikeman's goal is to quickly kill as many attackers as possible before they get close. The difference between 9 and 11 attack makes a significant difference in this regard. Note that I'm playing without any mods or fixers. After 1.2 cavalry will have their shields fixed and will be more tough to kill.

What does tend to matter a LOT is defense, especially Armour as thats the weak point of all pikes. Defense influences Pike Fights heavily as it means those enemy that get past the Pike points do a lot less damage, that really helps kill rates as extra men are worth so much more in a fight, it also helps keep long term costs down.However it's the missile resistance that is so important, Tericos can be shot up MUCH more effectively than Nobles/Heavy Pike militia, and no matter how fast you kill their missiles you'll always take some losses.

True, but the marginal armor difference between Nobles and Tercios simply doesn't warrant the increased cost. Maybe you can do some scientific, empirical tests if you want to prove otherwise (I don't have time to do those right now).

Morale is another paper stat, if your using your pikes right they shouldn't be moving much and should have their flanks/rears well protected, plus shouldn't be too badly shot up as you dealt with the enemy missile swiftly and promptly. Therefore, the reality is that the Pikes have few Morale Modifiers and will virtually fight to the last man almost regardless of morale. it only means anything when something goes badly wrong, and if that happens you may well have lost the battle as Pikes rely on carrying out the same fixed plan time and time again. Get it right and it's a near guaranteed win, get it wrong and it's a near guaranteed loss. It does matter, but not ass much as you'd think.

It makes a difference when one faces high dread Mongol/Timurid armies, but I'd agree that morale isn't very high on the priority list.

Nope, Spain has the Moors, Milan, France, Portugal, and Sicily breathing down it's neck. Scotland once it's dealt with England can concentrate the British isles on growth and economy, it's never likely to be in danger their again. The same cannot be said of Spain for some time.

Scots start with one built-up settlement and no relatively quick access to plentiful and rich merchant resources (Timbuktu/Arguin). Spain if it plays its cards right can also enjoy some nice build-up time once it unifies Iberia.

Outside of SP I'd agree, but by the time you get to Pikes in SP your income is so high it simply doesn't mater with cost. And on availability the Tericos lose badly, not to mention the cost difference between nobles and Tericos is only 60 florins.

Yes, the Military Academy is a pain to build but 4 turns isn't a whole lot and the 4800 florins is "paid back" in Tercio savings in about 10 turns.
I'd rather have more income than less, if I don't get major disadvantages.

AND we haven't even looked at how the supporting armies square up, for Pike support Scotland is FAR better IMHO.

Really? No musketeers, no charge 8 cavalry, no pavise xbows and of course no Jinettes....
I will admit your archers are better though.
-----
After 1.2 all our opinions may become irrelevant, but for now let Tercios hold the defensive pike crown, with Nobles a distinguished runner-up.

Aventuros will beat both of them on offense though.

**Foz** · 03-19-2007, 21:21

Originally Posted by Miracle

Yes, the Military Academy is a pain to build but 4 turns isn't a whole lot and the 4800 florins is "paid back" in Tercio savings in about 10 turns.
I'd rather have more income than less, if I don't get major disadvantages.

The influence of the military academy requirement on availability and logistics is not strictly limited to one city having to build a military academy. You have two options:

1. Raise only 1 military academy, and deal with the ever-increasing strain of having to transport your Tercios further and further to get to the frontline action, and further back to the rear to be retrained if you so desire.

OR

2. Raise more academies as you expand in an attempt to keep their production more toward where the action is happening in your empire.

#1 ends up being costly monetarily because it means your troops spend a lot of time walking to the action, and therefore are having fully wasted turns, which you should rightly count as economic loss in the amount of their upkeep, since other troops could be easily produced at the front lines instead of walking for multiple turns.

#2 ends up being costly monetarily because you're constantly putting up new military academies and waiting to be able to recruit more Tercios, which costs both money and turns. Not to mention you may again have to build blacksmith buildings if the new Tercio center doesn't have them yet.

Noble Pikes are vastly superior in this respect because any old huge city you capture can produce them right off the bat, so you incur no additional costs or logistical problems from having or using them - you simply retrain them or recruit more at the front, and fight with them.

So as you can see, the cost-benefit problem is not nearly so clear-cut as you would like to make it, and personally I doubt if the lower cost of the Tercios can outweigh the horrible availability and logistical problems they create due to their tech requirements.

**Carl** · 03-19-2007, 23:05

Tercios go straight from unarmored to light mail, then heavy mail. That corresponds to +7 armor. Nobles go from +8 to +9 for full plate. Check this and this .

We determined that it DOESN'T work like that, we don't know exactly how it works, (I chose the next Best option although we never proved that was the case either), but we do know the protection is worse in cases where it jumps from nothing to light mail than it should be.

Also, I've seen Partial Plate listed as 8 not 9 which matches the values for Noble Pikes. That makes it +2 not +1.

Pikes, if properly handled and if used in tandem with arquebusiers/musketeers, are excellent in field battles. It's a pity the Scots don't get indigenous gunpowder troops to complement their pikes. I find it odd you excluded bridge battles, because that's where I'd agree that pikes form an excellent defense. It's be crazy to use pikes for siege assault - anybody knows that - so for you to suggest that I'd do such a thing is insulting. Personally I prefer to avoid being sieged in the first place and destroy enemy armies in the field, but that's a difference in personal playstyle.

Actually I was excluding NON-Bridge Field battles, In bridge battles and sieges the Pikes are supreme.

I also wasn't trying to be insulting was addressing both you, and ANYONE ELSE who might be reading but who has never used pikes. My comment:

then i respectfully submit that you have no clue about how to use pikes.

was NOT meant as an insult. It merely meant that some of your comments led me to believe you didn't fully understand the distinct nature of what does and does not effect pike fights. That limits how much you can know about how to use them well. I'm not calling you stupid, just saying that it's my opinion you perhaps don't know enough about pikes as I feel i do.

Against infantry (which pikes get a penalty towards) and against very high defense cavalry, it does matter. The pikeman's goal is to quickly kill as many attackers as possible before they get close. The difference between 9 and 11 attack makes a significant difference in this regard. Note that I'm playing without any mods or fixers. After 1.2 cavalry will have their shields fixed and will be more tough to kill.

A LOT of things are in play here that your NOT taking account of. Fist the Long Pike attribute nullifies the Spear penalty. Second, Pikes attack at a rate about twice as fast as normal sword attacks. Third, when out of guard mode Pikes bunch up fast and will quickly be fighting in 4 ranks. thats 8 times as many attacks for the same frontal area. The kill rate is now so high that it has Little real effect on the final outcome, it only matters when the fight is close to begin with. If it's not close, (and pikes are such good meat-grinders it very rarely is), then it doesn't matter over much. Even the difference between 5 and 11 is only just enough to be noticeable.

True, but the marginal armor difference between Nobles and Tercios simply doesn't warrant the increased cost. Maybe you can do some scientific, empirical tests if you want to prove otherwise (I don't have time to do those right now).

I've used Pikes a Lot, believe me, it matters a hell of a lot as every man a Pike nit loses compromises it's strength doubly as it cuts into attacking power due to less attacks, but also because it means some f the pikemen in the unit will have less other pikes backing them up, it becomes a case of steadily increasing returns. killing a few extra guys can tip a fight even more decisively than an attack difference with pikes, especially against other pikes.

It makes a difference when one faces high dread Mongol/Timurid armies, but I'd agree that morale isn't very high on the priority list.

Thats more or less what I was saying BTW.

Scots start with one built-up settlement and no relatively quick access to plentiful and rich merchant resources (Timbuktu/Arguin). Spain if it plays its cards right can also enjoy some nice build-up time once it unifies Iberia.

Yes, but even after you've kicked out the moors and Portugal you'll have Milan, France and Sicily breathing down your neck, you simply can't secure the Iberian Peninsula as quickly, that means the Scots can start concentrating on pure growth much earlier than the Spanish can.

Yes, the Military Academy is a pain to build but 4 turns isn't a whole lot and the 4800 florins is "paid back" in Tercio savings in about 10 turns.
I'd rather have more income than less, if I don't get major disadvantages.

I was actually pointing out that A) the price difference isn't worth getting worked up over. Noble pikes are slightly more effective and cost slightly more.

And B) with so much money coming in the relative costs i terms of both base price and upkeep really don't matter, you could recruit far more than you could ever use. So in many ways, the price in SP simply doesn't matter, it wouldn't matter if they where twice the price they are, the cost difference wouldn't be large enough to make the ob;e Pikes worse as you could STILL recruit and keep more than you'd ever need or use.

Of course, Foz points out another good point too if you do take it into account.

Really? No musketeers, no charge 8 cavalry, no pavise xbows and of course no Jinettes....
I will admit your archers are better though.

This is one of the big reasons I feel you don't know how to use Pikes well. Pike based armies need certain types of support unit. The cost in unit slots of including the pikes and all the support units will not normally leave you with any room to include frivolities such as missile units or Heavy Cav.

First you need a solid center of 6-8 Pikes, you then need to back that up with at least 1 AP melee unit and 1 Heavily armored melee unit, (stuff like Dismounted Chivalric Knights), per flank. You'll also need at least 2 light Cav units per flank and at least a spear unit per flank. Lastly you'll need a mobile reserve of troops to plug the inevitable holes.

Overall only missile units that are really good in melee are worth bringing. Thats where Scots archers have you. They can actually fulfill the AP melee unit job nicely. Your Jinnetes might not be bad light Cav, but I'd say the archers beat them as missile units and Border Horse make fine light Cav in any case.

Don't get me wrong, if you can get hold of Conquistadors then they can come close to replacing the AP melee unit due to their unusually high attack. but TBH the strengths of Spanish armies don't lie in pikes and their army isn't set up to support them as well as the Scots is.

**Miracle** · 03-20-2007, 03:20

Foz:

I'd usually go with #2.

Again, the academies aren't a problem because the Tercios are cheap and good enough to justify their construction time and cost. The armoury buildings are already assumed to be there since they're fairly low-level and the benefits to other city troops are quite significant.

In addition the likely opponent of the Spanish by the time Tercios are available is the French, who are capable of building academies themselves, so building academies at the front line isn't always necessary.

Academies also provide benefits to any general who visits. The extra command star may mean all the difference in battle.

Carl:

I'd like to see what data you have to support your armor doubts, and why your conclusion is different from Foz's who posted a few days ago.

A LOT of things are in play here that your NOT taking account of. Fist the Long Pike attribute nullifies the Spear penalty. Second, Pikes attack at a rate about twice as fast as normal sword attacks. Third, when out of guard mode Pikes bunch up fast and will quickly be fighting in 4 ranks. thats 8 times as many attacks for the same frontal area. The kill rate is now so high that it has Little real effect on the final outcome, it only matters when the fight is close to begin with. If it's not close, (and pikes are such good meat-grinders it very rarely is), then it doesn't matter over much. Even the difference between 5 and 11 is only just enough to be noticeable.

long_pike is useless if the pikemen can't kill their attackers before they get close. Again, I'm using vanilla so not every pikeman uses his pike 100% of the time. That necessitates killing as many opponents at a distance as possible before swords are drawn. I personally use a two rank line because it's just as effective as a four rank one at stopping cavalry attacks, plus it can better cover long musketeer lines. Those two ranks need all the attack they can get to stop attackers before they get close.

I've used Pikes a Lot, believe me

Give me some hard relevant numbers from reproducible custom battles and I'll believe you.

you'll have Milan, France and Sicily breathing down your neck,

What guarantees someone won't be breathing down the Scots' neck? After 1.2 this question may be even more relevant.

you simply can't secure the Iberian Peninsula as quickly

It has 8 regions vs. 7 for the British Isles, so I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd have more regions to grow and thus more capability when I'm done with this stage.

Regarding SP fiscal policy: I have a long term, fiscally conservative campaign playstyle, so don't be surprised if I greatly favor high value, low upkeep units.

frivolities such as missile units or Heavy Cav

This clearly indicates a difference in personal tastes, not knowledge of pikes and pike support. I use mostly light/heavy cavalry and AP missiles to support my pikes; you use mostly heavy infantry and heavy archers. You seem to have had some success with your arrangement, but I still prefer mine.