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Thread: Communism/Theocracy?
I would hang myself from the nearest tree.
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII:
PJ: I think fascism is a very strange ideology that cannot be applied to real life in any "good" fashion. You see, it is an aggressive appeal to the most macho and masochistic of our essence. Violence, expansion, control, an external enemy, national glory, moral superiority, domination...
Just about the worst choice, really. The communist and theocratic regimes tend to have their occasional reigns of terror; fascism is a perpetual one.
They usually maintain a haphazard quasi-monopoly economy where the Very Very Rich Men supports the government in exchange for economic monopoly.
PJ: I think fascism is a very strange ideology that cannot be applied to real life in any "good" fashion. You see, it is an aggressive appeal to the most macho and masochistic of our essence. Violence, expansion, control, an external enemy, national glory, moral superiority, domination...
Just about the worst choice, really. The communist and theocratic regimes tend to have their occasional reigns of terror; fascism is a perpetual one.
They usually maintain a haphazard quasi-monopoly economy where the Very Very Rich Men supports the government in exchange for economic monopoly.
Fascism - done well - takes the best elements of all the major ideologies.
It is just important that there is a clear methodology in selecting the leadership. That's where things went wrong in the '30s. :)
Originally Posted by PanzerJager:
Fascism - done well - takes the best elements of all the major ideologies.
If you please -- can you expand on that?Fascism - done well - takes the best elements of all the major ideologies.
How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
Does fascism even have a definable ideology? Take Mussolini for an example, first he was a socialist then he went on to appease the middle-class and oppose the socialists, when asked what the political goals of the fascists were the answer was: "We want to rule Italy!"
Originally Posted by Sjakihata:
How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
Before we all pile into PanzerJager for his views, let's allow him to have a chance to explain. As far as I recall, he does not support the Nazi's extermination camps and we should be careful not to imply that he does unless he makes that assertion.How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
There have been fascist regimes that did not have a racial extermination policy, just as there have been communist regimes that did not send everyone and his dog to a gulag.
We allow monarchists, anarchists, imperialists, communists and many other "ists" to promulgate their views here - as long as they do so respectfully and within the rules. We must allow the same courtesy to PJ, even if he is a minority of one.
Well, fascism isn't the same as nazi's, they're national socialists. Fascism is *somewhat* similar, but it did NOT promote a racial barrier. To me, fascism is defined by a class barrier. You have your ruling class, your noble class, your middle class and the "nobody cares about you" class. The people is held in their class, and the lower in the classes you get, the less consideration is given to you.
The opposite of socialism really.
Oh, and like Banquo's Ghost said, don't flame him for promoting fascism, there are people here who would be very interested to hear what he has to say ;)
The opposite of socialism really.
Oh, and like Banquo's Ghost said, don't flame him for promoting fascism, there are people here who would be very interested to hear what he has to say ;)
It is a tricky question...
I can't say I enjoy living as in the People's Republic of Scotland much, though I feel I still would not enjoy living here if it was ruled by the Church of Scotland or other Fire-and-Brimstone churches. At least the place would be democratic. And they would have no problem with drinking. If I was over 18. And they would get rid of the Glorious Executive and its ruthless oppression of the Middle- and Upper-Classes...
I can't say I enjoy living as in the People's Republic of Scotland much, though I feel I still would not enjoy living here if it was ruled by the Church of Scotland or other Fire-and-Brimstone churches. At least the place would be democratic. And they would have no problem with drinking. If I was over 18. And they would get rid of the Glorious Executive and its ruthless oppression of the Middle- and Upper-Classes...
I'm very much interested in PJ's words on fascism. I think I know what he means, but I might be wrong and I don't want to put any words into his mouth.
Hah hah, Sjakihata, you're almost making a straw man there :P
Hah hah, Sjakihata, you're almost making a straw man there :P
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Anyway, I blame Stalin.
Do not blame him; rather blame Man's inherent greed and thirst for power.Anyway, I blame Stalin.
I am surprised by the amount of people who voted for Communism. Both can be bad but at least "Christian" Theocracy would, or should, if the Preaching is accurate to the Bible, allow freedom to a great degree.
Originally Posted by diablodelmar:
I am surprised by the amount of people who voted for Communism. Both can be bad but at least "Christian" Theocracy would, or should, if the Preaching is accurate to the Bible, allow freedom to a great degree.
My point exactly.I am surprised by the amount of people who voted for Communism. Both can be bad but at least "Christian" Theocracy would, or should, if the Preaching is accurate to the Bible, allow freedom to a great degree.
Originally Posted by Sjakihata:
How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
Theres a clear difference between Nazism and Fascism. Try to recognize that.How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
Communism is the worst piece of crap in this world !
Why ? Because it appears so utopic, so wonderfull - when in fact is so monstruos. Communism killed many more people than fascism.
When speaking about theocracy, we should distinguish islamic fundamentalism from christian fundamentalism. Islam at its fundamental is an extremely bloody religion (we cannot deny the muslim conquest of the VI-VII century AD, and all the murderous things made by muslims against the christians and persian zoroastrians alike), it evolved, under the influence of christian ideas, into something more moderate with the course of time.
If anyone would choose to live in a Xth century , or XIIth century islamic state, would enjoy a freedom not found anywhere in the world at that time. Just look at that awesome Islamic civilization, at the Sufi school, at the wonderfull poetry... muslim people have achieved an extraordinary advance both in culture and in religious depht once they managed to put down the sword.
Christianity, on the other hand, started as a pacifistic and idealist religions, evolving into a bloody religion later, when christians assumed controls of the politics. Some traditions where made in christianity simply to justify theyr killings. What christians did during the Crusades or the Reconquista was terrible.... and very, very farr from the good old christian spirit.
I guess a presumed fundamentalist christian country, inspired by the spirit of the arhaic church (second and third century AD) where the laws are inspired by the church tradition, and by a good interepretation of the Scriptures would be one of the best possible places to live.
While i do agree that theocracy is obsolete in our times (due to the large variety of people`s opinion), at least i, personally, would agree with a true christian rulling of my country.
Why ? Because it appears so utopic, so wonderfull - when in fact is so monstruos. Communism killed many more people than fascism.
When speaking about theocracy, we should distinguish islamic fundamentalism from christian fundamentalism. Islam at its fundamental is an extremely bloody religion (we cannot deny the muslim conquest of the VI-VII century AD, and all the murderous things made by muslims against the christians and persian zoroastrians alike), it evolved, under the influence of christian ideas, into something more moderate with the course of time.
If anyone would choose to live in a Xth century , or XIIth century islamic state, would enjoy a freedom not found anywhere in the world at that time. Just look at that awesome Islamic civilization, at the Sufi school, at the wonderfull poetry... muslim people have achieved an extraordinary advance both in culture and in religious depht once they managed to put down the sword.
Christianity, on the other hand, started as a pacifistic and idealist religions, evolving into a bloody religion later, when christians assumed controls of the politics. Some traditions where made in christianity simply to justify theyr killings. What christians did during the Crusades or the Reconquista was terrible.... and very, very farr from the good old christian spirit.
I guess a presumed fundamentalist christian country, inspired by the spirit of the arhaic church (second and third century AD) where the laws are inspired by the church tradition, and by a good interepretation of the Scriptures would be one of the best possible places to live.
While i do agree that theocracy is obsolete in our times (due to the large variety of people`s opinion), at least i, personally, would agree with a true christian rulling of my country.
Perhaps one might similarly argue that communism, as it has existed, was equally non-communistic, and that you're allowing for an idealized version of theocracy but a 'real' version of communism.
Rex you are ignoring the time period in which Christianity and Islam evolved. Christianity developed during the Roman Empire when there was generally peace throughout the lands and no need for violence. Islam was developed after the peak of Roman Power and in an area with a power vaccum. If Muslims did not conquer their surrounding territories, they would've been taken over and Islam would probably not have been a major religion right now. If Christianity evolved under similar circumstances, there can be no doubt that it will be just as violent as Islam if not even more.
You are saying that real life communism is worse than ideal theocracy which is certainley the truth, but that is like comparing apples to oranges. I personally would much rather live in a realistic communistic gov instead of a realistic theocratic one
You are saying that real life communism is worse than ideal theocracy which is certainley the truth, but that is like comparing apples to oranges. I personally would much rather live in a realistic communistic gov instead of a realistic theocratic one
Theocracy I suppose because its more likely that you would be left alone in it. However both are pretty dismal TBH.
I'd do my best to increase global warming...mostly by breathing heavily over my harem of 40 of the most beautiful servants err wives I mean women...so it would all end rather quickly.... oh wait
Originally Posted by Sjakihata:
How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
what has facism got to do with killing jews?How is done well defined? Killing more than 1000 jews pr. day or even 10,000?
Originally Posted by :
I guess a presumed fundamentalist christian country, inspired by the spirit of the arhaic church (second and third century AD) where the laws are inspired by the church tradition, and by a good interepretation of the Scriptures would be one of the best possible places to live.
the problem is that "good" intepretations vary a lot, in reality a theocracy (similarly to communism) sounds very nice, but isn't all that happy...I guess a presumed fundamentalist christian country, inspired by the spirit of the arhaic church (second and third century AD) where the laws are inspired by the church tradition, and by a good interepretation of the Scriptures would be one of the best possible places to live.
--> I would probably prefer communism, but only because i know everyone gets equally mistreated
There's one thing I'd like to say and that is that a perfect christian society is as much unattainable as a perfect communist society. Both are impossible to maintain perfection in because of man's inherent cruely and greed. Jesus said that if someone commits a sin you should forgive them and not punish them, if someone hits you, you turn the other cheek, genereally Jesus was a very nice guy but not one whose teachings could be used as a model for laws in state rather his teachings are an ideal to try to achieve, but how do you think a TRULY christian state would fare? It's the same with communism really, very nice ideals, equality and all that, but not applicable in real life.
Also the difference between christianity and Islam can be understood by comparing their founders; Mohammed was a man who could be characterized as a politician and made compromises with his own values as politicians do. Jesus was just a really nice guy who had no real interest in politics and state-running or war as most of it involved violence or being mean to someone or lying.
Also I don't think fascism or nazism is the opposite of communism. the opposite of communism would be a religious, free market society with no taxes and no welfare services, with prices on everything. Fascism is basically militant populism, while nazism is a sort of socialism with extreme nationalism and racism thrown in.
Also the difference between christianity and Islam can be understood by comparing their founders; Mohammed was a man who could be characterized as a politician and made compromises with his own values as politicians do. Jesus was just a really nice guy who had no real interest in politics and state-running or war as most of it involved violence or being mean to someone or lying.
Also I don't think fascism or nazism is the opposite of communism. the opposite of communism would be a religious, free market society with no taxes and no welfare services, with prices on everything. Fascism is basically militant populism, while nazism is a sort of socialism with extreme nationalism and racism thrown in.
Originally Posted by King Henry V:
Do not blame him; rather blame Man's inherent greed and thirst for power.
We should be thankful for it, it's why we're all alive after all.Do not blame him; rather blame Man's inherent greed and thirst for power.
Originally Posted by Randarkmaan:
. Jesus was just a really nice guy who had no real interest in politics and state-running or war as most of it involved violence or being mean to someone or lying.
that's what they tell you.... Jesus was just a really nice guy who had no real interest in politics and state-running or war as most of it involved violence or being mean to someone or lying.
Originally Posted by :
Also I don't think fascism or nazism is the opposite of communism. the opposite of communism would be a religious, free market society with no taxes and no welfare services, with prices on everything. Fascism is basically militant populism, while nazism is a sort of socialism with extreme nationalism and racism thrown in.
agreed, its just easier (and more convenient) to see facism as the opposite because of the difference between individual and stateAlso I don't think fascism or nazism is the opposite of communism. the opposite of communism would be a religious, free market society with no taxes and no welfare services, with prices on everything. Fascism is basically militant populism, while nazism is a sort of socialism with extreme nationalism and racism thrown in.
Originally Posted by Kanamori:
We should be thankful for it, it's why we're all alive after all.
Perhaps, but I was referring to the corruption of the theoretical communist state into the real world communist regimes.We should be thankful for it, it's why we're all alive after all.
Originally Posted by Randarkmaan:
Does fascism even have a definable ideology? Take Mussolini for an example, first he was a socialist then he went on to appease the middle-class and oppose the socialists, when asked what the political goals of the fascists were the answer was: "We want to rule Italy!"
No it doesn't have. Facism is a mixture of poetry, maxims and action. There's no system nor methodology of facism, there's no doctrine. There's nothing to be "correctly applied" beyond what has already been done.Does fascism even have a definable ideology? Take Mussolini for an example, first he was a socialist then he went on to appease the middle-class and oppose the socialists, when asked what the political goals of the fascists were the answer was: "We want to rule Italy!"
Originally Posted by :
Christian.
Sorry I thought this was about a theocracy, not just a Christian theocracy. The interesting thing is that the posters are trying to polarize communism and theocracy when communism was born in the cradle of religion. The first people to found the First International (between them Blanqui) were deeply religious, and believed in what one may call "Christian totalitarism", to achieve the same ends that communism has as a purpose: economic equality. It's true that the theory of historical materialism was born on Germany (Marx), but the ideologies of movement and production can all be found on France on the times of the First International.Christian.
About communism (this is of course a tired topic, and it goes to show how much controversy this theory can cause, it's always communism against X), if anybody reads the original works of Marx and Engels (particularly Marx) and then passes through their commentators and reinterpeters one will find that the theory itself suffers a change on every reinterpretation. The most critical of them is that of Lenin, wich in turn gets pushed to the extreme by Stalin in one form, and by Mao in another. The interesting thing is that this can be attributed to Marx, not because he has exactly stated in one way or the other, but especially because he didn't. He refused to explain the details of the Revolution because that was left to the praxis, all had to surge from the mechanism of production (though in some points he accepts the political struggle as a legitim field). Eventually it did... one could argue.
EDIT: Blanqui wasn't on the First International.
Originally Posted by Rex_Pelasgorum:
Communism is the worst piece of crap in this world !
Why ? Because it appears so utopic, so wonderfull - when in fact is so monstruos. Communism killed many more people than fascism.
Communism hasn't killed more people than fascism - just one particular nutjob called Stalin. If i recall, Khruschev denounced Stalin as soon as he took power - that is how much he was hated.Communism is the worst piece of crap in this world !
Why ? Because it appears so utopic, so wonderfull - when in fact is so monstruos. Communism killed many more people than fascism.
Anyway, go communism. Can't stand religion.
Both suck, in varying degrees. It makes a lot of difference if it's Vatican city vs. Stalin's USSR, or if it's the Paris commune vs. Iran.
Originally Posted by Randarkmaan:
Does fascism even have a definable ideology? Take Mussolini for an example, first he was a socialist then he went on to appease the middle-class and oppose the socialists, when asked what the political goals of the fascists were the answer was: "We want to rule Italy!"
Fascism is best described by summing up what it isn't. It's, at its core, anti-capitalist, anti-communist, anti-liberalist and most of all, anti-individualist. Fascism is certainly on the bottom of my list (or National Socialism, if you want to differentiate between the two), theocracy and marxist-leninism sharing a place just above it.Does fascism even have a definable ideology? Take Mussolini for an example, first he was a socialist then he went on to appease the middle-class and oppose the socialists, when asked what the political goals of the fascists were the answer was: "We want to rule Italy!"
Facism only means that there is an authoritarian gov. that forces the people to be extremely patriotic and place their loyalty to country above all. It is not necessarily anti-capitalist, but only against Laissez-faire capitalism where there is no government involvment or government restrictions. Industrialistic capitalism is fine for most facists.
Also, how can it be anti-capitalist and anti-individualist when it is anti-communist? Capitalism and individualism is almost the exact oppositie of communistic ideals. Facism is not necessarily inately evil and worse than all other forms of government, but it is just that facism is associated with Hitler and the Nazis making people just instantly start hating it
Also, how can it be anti-capitalist and anti-individualist when it is anti-communist? Capitalism and individualism is almost the exact oppositie of communistic ideals. Facism is not necessarily inately evil and worse than all other forms of government, but it is just that facism is associated with Hitler and the Nazis making people just instantly start hating it
Originally Posted by Xdeathfire:
Also, how can it be anti-capitalist and anti-individualist when it is anti-communist? Capitalism and individualism is almost the exact oppositie of communistic ideals.
communism and facism both take away the power of the individual in a capitalist system, both get "told" what to do, in the same way it restricts individual freedom in exactly the same way... just because it is anti-communist doesnt make it the opposite, infact there are many similarities...Also, how can it be anti-capitalist and anti-individualist when it is anti-communist? Capitalism and individualism is almost the exact oppositie of communistic ideals.
@ Soulforged: Well, first of, the Blanquists was at the First International.
But there was a wide range of people there. Republicans, mutulaists, marx etc. There were religious people there, but none of them shaped marxism. "Religion; Opium to the people" accurately describes a marxist view of religion.
The only religious socialist I can remember who had an influence on anything, was a priest who talked with Lenin after a strike in around 1905(I think it was after he wrote "What is to be done?"). In fact, Lenin, and most others, saw them as mentally challenged...
Regarding Fascism, remember that Hitler was a National Socialist, not a fascist. Fascism refers to the rule of Mussolini. Franco was sympathetic, but not fascist himself.
Oh, and yes, fascism is about the worst form of government ever conceived, along with monarchy and theocracy. And every government with a touch of nationalism.
But there was a wide range of people there. Republicans, mutulaists, marx etc. There were religious people there, but none of them shaped marxism. "Religion; Opium to the people" accurately describes a marxist view of religion.
The only religious socialist I can remember who had an influence on anything, was a priest who talked with Lenin after a strike in around 1905(I think it was after he wrote "What is to be done?"). In fact, Lenin, and most others, saw them as mentally challenged...
Regarding Fascism, remember that Hitler was a National Socialist, not a fascist. Fascism refers to the rule of Mussolini. Franco was sympathetic, but not fascist himself.
Oh, and yes, fascism is about the worst form of government ever conceived, along with monarchy and theocracy. And every government with a touch of nationalism.
..well that all depends. I think I'd rather live in Iran rather than North Korea, but I'd rather live in Cuba rather than Iran.
Well... I suppose Vietnam wouldn't be so bad either. Anyways, just as long as you keep your mouth shut, look to the ground, and hide a few AK 47s, A revolution is never too far away with Dictatorships.
Well... I suppose Vietnam wouldn't be so bad either. Anyways, just as long as you keep your mouth shut, look to the ground, and hide a few AK 47s, A revolution is never too far away with Dictatorships.
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