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  1. #1
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warning?Not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
    Call me gullible for this post, yet a while ago I believed that man made global warming was something to be feared and would in the end destroy the planet. However, recently, a program on Channel Four, "The Great Global Warming Swindle", caused me to doubt the whole thing was really man-made and was more some theory that came up a while ago and is just being kept up by the UN now to prevent third world country development and the loss of thousands of jobs. The evidence shown in that program clearly showed that in the past the amount of CO2 in the environment actually followed temperature and not the other way round. It also clearly showed that nature, volcanoes and rotting, caused more CO2 emissions than industries and that the amount of sun-spots showed positive correlation between the number of them on the sun and the temperature. According to the program the reasoning behind all this CO2 and Global Warming facts was due to the amount of jobs and businesses that would be lost through the end of the theory of global warming. I now take up an un-biased outlook on Global Warming and believe that there may be a little bit of truth in both sides hypothesis.

    BTW, sorry for going rather off-topic.
    Omanes, you should read a response to the Channel 4 programme from one of the scientists featured before setting much store by what was presented.

    If you do a search, you can find more disappointment with the hatchet job C4 did, from both sides of the debate.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Carl Wunsch: I should never have trusted Channel 4

    Our credibility as scientists rests on being protective of our authority and expertise

    Published: 15 March 2007


    I believe that climate change is real, a major threat, and almost surely has a major human-induced component. But I have tried to stay out of the "climate wars" because all nuance tends to be lost, and the distinction between what we know firmly, as scientists, and what we suspect is happening, is so difficult to maintain in the presence of rhetorical excess. In the long run, our credibility as scientists rests on being very careful of, and protective of, our authority and expertise.

    The science of climate change remains incomplete. Some elements are based so firmly on well understood principles, or on such clear observational records, that most scientists would agree that they are almost surely true (adding CO2 to the atmosphere is dangerous; sea level will continue to rise...). Other elements remain more uncertain, but we as scientists in our roles as informed citizens believe society should be deeply concerned about their possibility: a Mid-western US megadrought in 100 years; melting of a large part of the Greenland ice sheet, among many other examples.

    I am on record in a number of places as complaining about the over-dramatisation and unwarranted extrapolation of scientific facts. Thus the notion that the Gulf Stream would or could "shut off" or that with global warming Britain would go into a "new ice age" are either scientifically impossible or so unlikely as to threaten our credibility as a scientific discipline if we proclaim their reality. They also are huge distractions from more immediate and realistic threats. I've focused more on the extreme claims in the literature warning of coming catastrophe, both because I regard the scientists there as more serious, and because I am very sympathetic to the goals of those who sometimes seem, however, to be confusing their specific scientific knowledge with their worries about the future.

    When approached by WAGTV, on behalf of Channel 4, I was led to believe that I would be given an opportunity to explain why I, like some others, find the statements at both extremes of the global change debate distasteful. This seemed like a good opportunity to explain why, for example, I thought more attention should be paid to sea level rise, which is ongoing and unstoppable and carries a real threat of acceleration, than to the unsupportable claims that the ocean circulation was undergoing shutdown.

    I wanted to explain why observing the ocean was so difficult, and why it is so tricky to predict with any degree of confidence such important climate elements as its heat and carbon storage and transports in 10 or 100 years. I am distrustful of prediction scenarios for details of the ocean circulation that rely on extremely complicated coupled models that must run unconstrained by observations for decades to thousands of years. Nonetheless, and contrary to the impression given in the film, I firmly believe there is a great deal about the mechanisms of climate to be learnt from models. With effort, all of this ambiguity is explicable to the public.

    In the part of The Great Climate Change Swindle where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous - because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important - diametrically opposite to the point I was making - which is that global warming is both real and threatening.

    Channel 4 now says they were making a film in a series of "polemics". There is nothing in the communication we had that suggested they were making a film that was one-sided, anti-educational, and misleading. I took them at face value - a great error.

    As a society, we need to take out insurance against catastrophe in the same way we take out homeowner's protection against fire. I buy fire insurance, but I also take the precaution of having the wiring in the house checked, keeping the heating system up to date, etc.How large a fire insurance premium is it worth paying? How much is it worth paying for rewiring the house? $10,000 but perhaps not $100,000? Answers, even at this mundane level, are not obvious.

    How much is it worth to society to restrain CO2 emissions - will that guarantee protection against global warming? Is it sensible to subsidise insurance for people who wish to build in regions strongly susceptible to coastal flooding? These and others are truly complicated questions where often the science is not mature enough give definitive answers, much as we would like to be able to provide them.

    Scientifically, we can recognise the reality of the threat, and much of what society needs to insure against. Statements of concern do not need to imply that we have all the answers. Channel 4 had an opportunity to elucidate some of this ambiguity and complexity. The outcome is sad.

    The writer is Professor of Physical Oceanography at MIT
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  2. #2
    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warning?Not true?

    Those who deny Global Warming are either too lazy/greedy/ignorant too do something about it and wants to just leave the problem to their children and grandchildren.

    Granted their are many sources that try to refute global warming, but their evidence is all either taken out of context, misused, or just wrong. Take a look at Holocaust Denial. If you listened to their arguments without any prior knowledge of the Holocaust, you would probably say they have some very convincing arguments such as population statistics from the World Almanacs and logistics regarding the concentration camps, but most people know at least some things about the Holocaust and thus can see through the arguments of the deniers.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

  3. #3
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warning?Not true?

    Those who deny Global Warming are either too lazy/greedy/ignorant too do something about it and wants to just leave the problem to their children and grandchildren.
    No one denies theres global warming. Everyone ignore the benifits of it however. And many just get carried away with it and thats the problem.

    If you listened to their arguments without any prior knowledge of the Holocaust, you would probably say they have some very convincing arguments
    But there is no prior knowledge of man made global warming so this analogy is not a good one.

    Is the earth warming? YES

    Is man a cause of it Probably


    Are we ruining the earth forever? I doubt it.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  4. #4

    Default Re: Global Warning?Not true?

    What I've come to understand that the Apotyolitic version of Global warming is far overhyped. The version I've heard is that the earth is warming up a couple degrees from average although those couple of deggrees can throw some ecosystems out of whack but will not result in the next ice age, new york underwater or a venus like atmospher oven.
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
    -Stephen Crane

  5. #5
    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warning?Not true?

    The thing is, stopping global warming is not easy to put it lightly. Even if we start trying to minimize our impact on global warming and reduce emissions, it will take at least many decades to undo the damage that we have already done. In the immediete decade or two, the consequences are not very serious, but global warming will not be something that we can just say one day that we will stop it, but will continue for decades or centuries at which the consequencies pile up and becomes severely more dangerous. Having sea levels rise by an inch or a centimeter isn't that bad, but if that occurs continuously for a century, those people living below sea level or even at it won't be that happy
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warning?Not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xdeathfire
    Those who deny Global Warming are either too lazy/greedy/ignorant too do something about it and wants to just leave the problem to their children and grandchildren.

    Granted their are many sources that try to refute global warming, but their evidence is all either taken out of context, misused, or just wrong. Take a look at Holocaust Denial. If you listened to their arguments without any prior knowledge of the Holocaust, you would probably say they have some very convincing arguments such as population statistics from the World Almanacs and logistics regarding the concentration camps, but most people know at least some things about the Holocaust and thus can see through the arguments of the deniers.
    You are contributing to the hype in your own way.

    The Holocaust is a historical event. The discussion over global warming centers on scientific prognoses based on models. Doubts are raised by reputable scientists, not just by outsiders, and on scientific grounds, not on hearsay.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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