which units should have the SW?

**Obelics** · 03-17-2007, 16:05

well, i was trying to add the shield wall to the EB on BI, but what do you think? wich units should have it?

currently i have added it to:

Classic hoplites
Haploi hoplites
Spartan hoplites
Chartage Cit Militia
Chartage Libian-Phoenician Spearmen (light and heavy)
Massilian Hoplitai
Camillian Triari

Ive added it only to over-hand spearmen units, like oplites etc.
Ive not added it to others spearmen (like Polibian Triari, Nizag Gund, Geroas etc.)

now do you think Thureophori-like units should have it? For example torakitai, Libian spearmen etc.? They have the over-hand spear, but i dont want to give it to a lot of units.

im considering it just like an "Oplite Attribute" so i haven't given it to Barbarians or Romans (except the Camillian Triari)

what do you think? suggestions?

**Blingerman** · 03-17-2007, 16:12

Well I have added myself to all the overhand hoplites units and all the roman infantry units. I think the advance with shield wall is ok for roman legions. The problem I see is that AI is not using much the shield wall. Any suggestions?

**Bonny** · 03-17-2007, 16:31

additional units

Hypaspistai
Baktrian Agema
Agema Hellenikon
Gaizaharjoz

**Obelics** · 03-17-2007, 16:36

Originally Posted by Blingerman

Well I have added myself to all the overhand hoplites units and all the roman infantry units. I think the advance with shield wall is ok for roman legions. The problem I see is that AI is not using much the shield wall. Any suggestions?

well, to say the truth, im not very entusiast to add it to all romans, cause i think that the old-style Wall vs Wall tactics, or Masses vs Masses, is ok for the early repubblican army (camillian, but i gave it just to the triari) but it's not ok for the Polibian incarnation,who is intended to be more mobile and to flank and sourround the enemy. This is cause i like to intend the Shield Wall in EB just as an Oplite attribute, in the old mass vs mass battle style.

I suppose that if i have to add it even to swords unit and other roman units or other spearmen units, i have not to intend it like an oplite attribute anymore... well, it's a good problem.

PS according to the "Oplite attribute" matter, now that i think on, it's ok to not give it to the Thureophoroi-like units (Libian Spearmen, Torakitai etc.) who are supposed to be a mobile infantry not given to the wall vs wall tactic...

PPS what about the Icons? is some one capable of doing some nice SW icons for every faction group to add in the interface?

**Fondor_Yards** · 03-17-2007, 19:21

I gave shield wall to.....

Lo'hamim Azzilim, Aanatim Leebim, Dorkim Aloopim, Dorkim Kdosim, Dorkim Leebi-Ponnim Mesoorianim, Dorkim Leebi-Ponnim Mookdamim, Misteret Izrahim Tsorim, Mesoorianim Leebim, Arjos, Batacorii, Bataroas, Botroas, Calawre, Milnaht, Mori Gaesum, Neitos, Rycalawre, Solduros, Gaelaiche, Noricene Gaecori, Getikoi Stratiotai, Thorakitai Stratiotai, Taxeis Triballoi, Nizag Gund, Agema Hellenikon, Babylonian Heavy Infantry, Nakhararakan Tiknapah, Mardig Sooseramartik, Galatikoi Kleruchoi, Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, Hundáskápiz (Group of Hundred), Frameharjoz, Frankamannoz, Gaizaharjoz, Gastiz, Ferulharjoz, Sahsnotoz, Klumbokarlaz, Swardimannoz, Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Hypaspistai, Pheraspidai, Hoplitai Haploi, Spartiates Hoplitai, Baktrioi Agema, Hoplitai, Misthophoroi Hoplitai, Hoplitai Hellenikoi, Massiliotes Hoplitai, Dosidataskeli, Gestikapoinann, Scortamareva, Mercenary Scortamareva, Hastati*both*, Antesignani, Triarii*both*, Principes*both*, Western Auxilia, and Eastern Auxilia.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 03-17-2007, 20:00

As regards Roman units, it's appropriate for both types of Triarii and the Rorarii, the other early Roman units, including Princepes fight in an open formation which we can't exactly simulate, the closest thing is to charge in open formation after hurling pila and then switch to close just before contact.

It is most certainly not appropriate for Antesignani who are a form of light infantry.

As to Western and Eastern Avxilia, well I can't really say yay or nay. I'm sure they were capable of forming a shieldwall, the question is whether they'd do it for anything other than facing cavalry.

There's a really difference between close-order spearmen and a shieldwall, you knwo.

**antisocialmunky** · 03-17-2007, 20:09

You might consider it for certain later celtic or germanic spear units since according to certain reports some were formed up into something of a 'phalanx' atleast around Caesar's day. However, no one alive now really has much of an idea of the accuracy of that statement...

**Fondor_Yards** · 03-17-2007, 22:37

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

As regards Roman units, it's appropriate for both types of Triarii and the Rorarii, the other early Roman units, including Princepes fight in an open formation which we can't exactly simulate, the closest thing is to charge in open formation after hurling pila and then switch to close just before contact.

It is most certainly not appropriate for Antesignani who are a form of light infantry.

As to Western and Eastern Avxilia, well I can't really say yay or nay. I'm sure they were capable of forming a shieldwall, the question is whether they'd do it for anything other than facing cavalry.

There's a really difference between close-order spearmen and a shieldwall, you knwo.

Oh I basicly gave it to all units I know used it, *hoplites and such, and celtic/germanic units that in their describition say they use a shield wall*, and then a bunch who I thought should have it *like the babylonian spears*.

And how are Antesignani light infantry, they wear muscled bronze cuirass. That should make them more medium/heavy infantry shouldn't it?

**Kralizec** · 03-18-2007, 22:31

Well, the main purpose I can see for the shield wall ability mirrors that of the phalanx button: a strong front, but more vulnerable on the flanks and rear then normal units as well as being sub-optimal at defending walls (but not as bad as phalangatai)

So units that historically could fight well under most conditions should simply get good stats, rather then the shield wall attribute that's only helpful for ordered, frontal engagements. For that reason, units that fought in what you could call a shield wall like Ricalawre and Belgae Batacorii shouldn't get the ability.

I haven't actually ever used the Shield Wall formation, but from what I understand from it I'd say that only the various hoplites and similar troops (including the Liby-Phoenicians, but probably not the Camillan triarii) and maybe the Sweboz lancemen.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 03-18-2007, 22:51

Oh no, our Camillian Triarii are pure hoplites.

they should definately get shieldwall.

**Obelics** · 03-18-2007, 23:00

Actually ive updated my list of what i repute enought "sure" units

"Packed Oplite Formation". (it's a pure "convention")

Classic hoplites
Haploi hoplites
Spartan hoplites
Chartage Cit Militia
Chartage Libian-Phoenician Spearmen (light and heavy)
Massilian Hoplitai
Camillian Triari (not polybian)
Rorari
Noricene Gaecori (?)
Gaizaharjoz (?)

what do you think of noricene gaecori? and gaizaharjoz?
I think the best way to proceed, is to exclude every units you are in doubts.

Regarding the Theurophoroi-like units (Torakitai, Libian-spearmen etc.) im still of the opinion to not give them the ability.

**Kralizec** · 03-18-2007, 23:11

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Oh no, our Camillian Triarii are pure hoplites.

they should definately get shieldwall.

Ok, I wasn't sure

Originally Posted by Obelisc

Classic hoplites
Haploi hoplites
Spartan hoplites
Chartage Cit Militia
Chartage Libian-Phoenician Spearmen (light and heavy)
Massilian Hoplitai
Camillian Triari (not polybian)
Rorari
Noricene Gaecori

Not the Hypaspists or the Baktrion Agema?

In my humble opinion, I disagree with giving it to the Rorarii or the Noricenes. It always seemed to me that as far as their style is concerned they were closer to Thureophoroi then Hoplites. Personally I'd give it only to Hoplites and immitation hoplites

The Sweboz lancemen perhaps deserve the shield wall to represent the effects I mentioned earlier, to set them apart from units like Batacorii and because the vanilla phalanx seems overboard for them.

**Fondor_Yards** · 03-19-2007, 00:11

According to their unit describtions, Milnaht, Rycalawre, Frámêhárjoz, Hêruskoz Swáiut, Gestikapoinann, Nizag Gund, Hábuko-z Swáiut, Kavakaza Sparabara, Gáizáhárjoz should all have it as well.