which units should have the SW?

[Blingerman]

Well I have added myself to all the overhand hoplites units and all the roman infantry units. I think the advance with shield wall is ok for roman legions. The problem I see is that AI is not using much the shield wall. Any suggestions?

[Bonny]

additional units

Hypaspistai
Baktrian Agema
Agema Hellenikon
Gaizaharjoz

[Obelics]

Well I have added myself to all the overhand hoplites units and all the roman infantry units. I think the advance with shield wall is ok for roman legions. The problem I see is that AI is not using much the shield wall. Any suggestions?

well, to say the truth, im not very entusiast to add it to all romans, cause i think that the old-style Wall vs Wall tactics, or Masses vs Masses, is ok for the early repubblican army (camillian, but i gave it just to the triari) but it's not ok for the Polibian incarnation,who is intended to be more mobile and to flank and sourround the enemy. This is cause i like to intend the Shield Wall in EB just as an Oplite attribute, in the old mass vs mass battle style.

I suppose that if i have to add it even to swords unit and other roman units or other spearmen units, i have not to intend it like an oplite attribute anymore... well, it's a good problem.

PS according to the "Oplite attribute" matter, now that i think on, it's ok to not give it to the Thureophoroi-like units (Libian Spearmen, Torakitai etc.) who are supposed to be a mobile infantry not given to the wall vs wall tactic...

PPS what about the Icons? is some one capable of doing some nice SW icons for every faction group to add in the interface?

[Fondor_Yards]

I gave shield wall to.....

Lo'hamim Azzilim, Aanatim Leebim, Dorkim Aloopim, Dorkim Kdosim, Dorkim Leebi-Ponnim Mesoorianim, Dorkim Leebi-Ponnim Mookdamim, Misteret Izrahim Tsorim, Mesoorianim Leebim, Arjos, Batacorii, Bataroas, Botroas, Calawre, Milnaht, Mori Gaesum, Neitos, Rycalawre, Solduros, Gaelaiche, Noricene Gaecori, Getikoi Stratiotai, Thorakitai Stratiotai, Taxeis Triballoi, Nizag Gund, Agema Hellenikon, Babylonian Heavy Infantry, Nakhararakan Tiknapah, Mardig Sooseramartik, Galatikoi Kleruchoi, Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, Hundáskápiz (Group of Hundred), Frameharjoz, Frankamannoz, Gaizaharjoz, Gastiz, Ferulharjoz, Sahsnotoz, Klumbokarlaz, Swardimannoz, Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Hypaspistai, Pheraspidai, Hoplitai Haploi, Spartiates Hoplitai, Baktrioi Agema, Hoplitai, Misthophoroi Hoplitai, Hoplitai Hellenikoi, Massiliotes Hoplitai, Dosidataskeli, Gestikapoinann, Scortamareva, Mercenary Scortamareva, Hastati*both*, Antesignani, Triarii*both*, Principes*both*, Western Auxilia, and Eastern Auxilia.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As regards Roman units, it's appropriate for both types of Triarii and the Rorarii, the other early Roman units, including Princepes fight in an open formation which we can't exactly simulate, the closest thing is to charge in open formation after hurling pila and then switch to close just before contact.

It is most certainly not appropriate for Antesignani who are a form of light infantry.

As to Western and Eastern Avxilia, well I can't really say yay or nay. I'm sure they were capable of forming a shieldwall, the question is whether they'd do it for anything other than facing cavalry.

There's a really difference between close-order spearmen and a shieldwall, you knwo.

[antisocialmunky]

You might consider it for certain later celtic or germanic spear units since according to certain reports some were formed up into something of a 'phalanx' atleast around Caesar's day. However, no one alive now really has much of an idea of the accuracy of that statement...

[Watchman]

Those would probably be what the EB Gaisazharjoz represent. Anyway, the descriptions in export_unit.txt in fair few occasions mention something like "shieldwall formation" (and/or "Barritus warcry"), which besides the overall description and tactical niche of an unit is one guideline I used when modding mine.

I also gave it to most of the Eastern "sparabara"-style spearmen (which amount to the Hai Nizagamartik and Nizag Gund really) - if I've understood correctly those fellows' main battlefield duty was to form a solid barrier from behind which the infantry archers fired, and the SW formation presumably does a decent job at that. And, really, those poor folks are so weak in general it's only fair.

Well, the Babylonians and Nakrharakharakhasomething Tiknapahs too, as the descriptions sounded like they should be able to form very solid barriers to resist cavalry if necessary.

[Dooz]

Obelics, Watchman, could either of you guys post your files when you're done giving shieldwall to the appropriate units? I believe Watchman also added warcry and some of the other abilities to appropriate units as well. (I know I asked in the other thread too, but heck, I needs it!)

[Fondor_Yards]

As regards Roman units, it's appropriate for both types of Triarii and the Rorarii, the other early Roman units, including Princepes fight in an open formation which we can't exactly simulate, the closest thing is to charge in open formation after hurling pila and then switch to close just before contact.

It is most certainly not appropriate for Antesignani who are a form of light infantry.

As to Western and Eastern Avxilia, well I can't really say yay or nay. I'm sure they were capable of forming a shieldwall, the question is whether they'd do it for anything other than facing cavalry.

There's a really difference between close-order spearmen and a shieldwall, you knwo.

Oh I basicly gave it to all units I know used it, *hoplites and such, and celtic/germanic units that in their describition say they use a shield wall*, and then a bunch who I thought should have it *like the babylonian spears*.

And how are Antesignani light infantry, they wear muscled bronze cuirass. That should make them more medium/heavy infantry shouldn't it?

[Watchman]

Well, the Antesigniani are described as being a more mobile type of infantry than the Legionary line troops (the description says they wear the bronze quirasses to avoid the greate rencumberance of the long Lorica hamata, remember). I actually modded mine to use the semi_fast skeletons to represent this. Anyway, given that by the description they're apparently supposed to operate away from the security of the main battleline giving them the option to go into shieldwall might actually make sense, as an emergency cavalry-counter or similar that is easy enough to train the soldiers in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well this is the problem, technically ANY spear unit would form shieldwall when faced with cavalry. The problem is that.

A: The bonus against cav already reflects this.

B: Units such as Princepes and Antesigniani would not normally fight in such a manner.

As to the Antesigniani's status as light infantry, they operate on the flanks or at the front and rear of the column and are generally intended to be highly mobile, rather than to slog it out with real heavy infantry.

I don't know that there really is such a thing as "medium" infantry really, unless you go just by armour.