Faction List for EB2?

[Puupertti Ruma]

If there were to be a syracuse faction ( i think it would be very poular as most eb fans are veteran now and would love the challenge!),

what would be there unique units?

I am imagining they would have a fairly similar rostar to the KH?

Which is in a way a good thing, as M2TW's unit and model cap is the same as RTW's so a faction sharing lots of units with another would save some precious model space.

[KARTLOS]

Which is in a way a good thing, as M2TW's unit and model cap is the same as RTW's so a faction sharing lots of units with another would save some precious model space.

yes i agree, but to make them a truly worthwhile/intersting faction it would be useful if they had some unique units.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well the unit limit may be the same, but I heard some happy news concerning the model limit. Wasn't it, just about every unit its own?

[Anarzius]

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[Anarzius]

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[Foot]

Um, we have never tried to imitate the way history went. If the Gauls finish their civil war early, then you as Rome will have to deal with their new found strength. Sometimes I see the Aedui and Arverni sit in a stalemate for decades. Give up on following history, and try to play historically.

Foot

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The AI is hardcoded to go after the 'rebels' first and ignore other factions until they no longer border 'rebels'. This is why they always expand strangely. If they border a rebel province, they will put it as the priority target. The AI also seems incapible of fighting a war on multiple fronts, that is why you often see AS 'abandon' Antioch.

While I'm at it I will add that the AI is piroritized to attack you, so they will do things like conquer worthless provinces just so that they can get near you. And they will gang up on you. Peoples that should be enemies will be best friends if they are both at war with you. And the AI seems reluctant to attack your enemies, even if they share the enemy and are allied to you.

[Anarzius]

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[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Well, Dumatha is gone for the next version, and Gerrha doesn't seem to appeal to the Seleucids, so you won't have them wandering the desert as much (from what I've seen on the internal versions). Though, they are still incapable of fighting on two fronts. In the last game I played, they were doing well against the Ptolemai, then Pahlav attacked them and they shifted all their effort eastward, losing Antioch, Damascus, & Edessa (and I took Asia Minor from them).

From what I've seen the AI still can't fight too well on multiple fronts in M2TW either. Sometimes they even choose the stupidest front to dedicate themselves too, as well. One time I saw England put all of its effort into defending Oslo. France and HRE took their continental holdings and Scotland took nearly the whole British Isles, but Oslo was well defended.

I wish, for example, the AI couldn't change their capital and they would put all their effort into defending their capital to the death.

[Krusader]

I wish, for example, the AI couldn't change their capital and they would put all their effort into defending their capital to the death.

Actually I'd rather wish we could somehow designate "priority cities" for the different factions. If they have the city under control they will focus on defending it, but if the enemy has it they will focus on reclaiming it.

Seleukids would be Antioch, Seleukeia at least and probably Ekbatana & Susa as well.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Second!

In my Mak-campaign of which I'm sure I told everybody so far, the dirty Romans betrayed me, and I decided to punish them. For that purpose I had a full stack of mostly Celtic mercenaries with whom I rampaged through all of northern Italy, sacking Mediolanum, Segesta, Bononia, Ariminum and Arretium. Arretium was their capital at this time because Roma was once taken by the Epeirotes after I drove them out of Hellas and thus Arretium stayed place of the Senate although Roma was reconquered.

Well, after sacking Arretium, their new Capital was now... no, not Roma, Rhegion! In the meanwhile I landed a full professional Royal Army plus Reserve Division in Southern Italy, and I conquered Taras, and Arpi with the Celtic remnants, and then my Kleronomos Basileios conquered Rhegion. And guess where the honorable Senate decided to meet from then on? No, not Roma... Segesta! That means when I finally conquer Roma, it'll be just another Italian city...

In reality, Rome as a faction could barely survive if Rome would have been taken.

[Morte66]

I think the AI unit feature I'd like to see is "don't start a war with another faction voluntarily if you're already at war within five provinces in any direction".

[Philip of Massalia]

From 272 to 125BC, Massilia (not Massila !!!!) was a regional power of importance, both economically and culturally. The greeks of that city had alliances with both Emporion and Sagunta in Spain, while establishing good relations with Rome.

We have only sources for the Roman point of view on this Alliance, but archeologists I met in Emporion stressed that Massilian influence is much more visible in "Greek Spain" than Roman. (founded on 3rd century coinage and ceramics)

Hannibal wisely chose to bypass Massilia by the North before crossing the alps.

For all these reasons, Massilia (or Western Mediterranean Greek) faction could be an interesting challenge.

[Krusader]

From 272 to 125BC, Massilia (not Massila !!!!) was a regional power of importance, both economically and culturally. The greeks of that city had alliances with both Emporion and Sagunta in Spain, while establishing good relations with Rome.

We have only sources for the Roman point of view on this Alliance, but archeologists I met in Emporion stressed that Massilian influence is much more visible in "Greek Spain" than Roman. (founded on 3rd century coinage and ceramics)

Hannibal wisely chose to bypass Massilia by the North before crossing the alps.

For all these reasons, Massilia (or Western Mediterranean Greek) faction could be an interesting challenge.

Massilia is a pretty bad choice compared to many other factions in terms of military, influence and importance, so the EB team scrapped it.

[Geoffrey S]

This might be interesting when it comes to influencing expansion directions, but I don't know how much was coincidence.

[KuKulzA]

to add to the current faction list?

I would say something to give the Carthaginians and Egyptains to fight in Africa, perhaps another eastern faction, and someone to stop the Sweboz from overrunning everyone else. Also the Illyrians seem to be a very interesting group, i think it'd be worth looking into that...

perhaps...

Chatti / Chasuarii = Germanic rival faction to Sweboz
Illyria / Dalmatae / Scodrans = Illyrian faction to pose problems for later Romans and Eporite expansion
Cyrenaica / Libya = pose commercial and military rival of Kart-hadast and Ptolemaioi
Chandraguptan /NW India = pose a problem for Sleucids and Baktrians trying to expand into India, but they should beware of potential Saka or Parthian invasion

These will probably be small factions so some perks should be considered...

perhaps the Chatti can have a slightly different set of units from the Sweboz, and as their military organization was known so perhaps this can be shown through increase discipline and better supplying of armies?

Illyria can perhaps have the best (cheapest?) navy of all barbarian factions and make use of the Thracian peltasti style of warfare, the Greek style of hoplites, as well as their own? They will of course begin somewhat weak, like the Getai.

Cyrenaica can be a greek influenced trade-power. With a unique blend of many native libyans auxiliaries and greeks.

Chandraguptans will have the great repetoire of Indian armies and can have a homeland arrangement where they get missions and bonuses from the off-map capital of Pataliputra


looking back in this thread I have foudn that these 4 have been mentioned but I don't know how well they will be recieved... but thats another vote for Indian, Chatti, Illyria, and Cyrene!

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Cyrene wouldn't be a very good choice due to gameplay factors. They would have one rebel town to take (and if we need a new province somewhere Augilia is the first to go, so they would have nothing to take), then they would be sandwiched between two huge empires and would be a small bump in the road.

[Geoffrey S]

"Due to gameplay factors?" If they're imported enough to be considered (and I'll admit I don't know if they are) then that shouldn't be a reason. They would be playable by humans, which would be enough I would have thought.

[Foot]

The important thing to remember at this point is that there is very little between the factions when it gets to this point, if judging on the normal factors; gameplay must become a factor to decide between them.

Foot

[Geoffrey S]

True; I guess after the first few new factions are added the most important ones are included, and the rest is almost filler.

[paullus]

It is. Most of the remaining factions can be portrayed very nearly as well through eleutheroi assistance methods we've been developing. The main reason for making them factions is to add some flavor to your gameplay options, and get a little bit more AI versatility out of their regions, compared to what we'd get from eleutheroi mini-factions.

That said, gameplay reasons are still one of the last things we consider. So say we're talking about two factions, if they get through a whole gauntlet of historical considerations without a clear winner, only then does gameplay really become a relevant concern. That's pretty much what happened with a faction like Kyrenaia, which technically still has a shot at making EB2. By our consideration, Kyrenaia had similar economic, cultural, and military power to some other potential factions, though it historically lacked the staying power of any of our other factions (being absorbed into the Ptolemaic kingdom a few decades into the game). That last aspect was already weakening them, but when we considered that they would have little to no expansion options outside of war with juggernaut factions to the east and west...well, the odds got pretty bad for dear ol Kyrenaia.

[Geoffrey S]

But then, wouldn't it be feasible to include the Yuezhi as an emerging faction in the East? I can understand the reluctance to use such a feature anywhere else on the map, since the history leading to a potential emergence is totally different after the first few turns. But the Yuezhi emerging hinges on factors outside the campaign map and anything happening there, and they did play a massive role in the east of the map.

Just my thoughts. I know EB isn't planning to include emerging factions, but in this case I think an exception would be worthwhile. definitely if a number of other possible contenders may as well be portrayed by (assisted) rebels.

[KARTLOS]

It is. Most of the remaining factions can be portrayed very nearly as well through eleutheroi assistance methods we've been developing. The main reason for making them factions is to add some flavor to your gameplay options, and get a little bit more AI versatility out of their regions, compared to what we'd get from eleutheroi mini-factions.

That said, gameplay reasons are still one of the last things we consider. So say we're talking about two factions, if they get through a whole gauntlet of historical considerations without a clear winner, only then does gameplay really become a relevant concern. That's pretty much what happened with a faction like Kyrenaia, which technically still has a shot at making EB2. By our consideration, Kyrenaia had similar economic, cultural, and military power to some other potential factions, though it historically lacked the staying power of any of our other factions (being absorbed into the Ptolemaic kingdom a few decades into the game). That last aspect was already weakening them, but when we considered that they would have little to no expansion options outside of war with juggernaut factions to the east and west...well, the odds got pretty bad for dear ol Kyrenaia.

if gameplay factors come into consideration, would you consider a public vote to gauge popularity of some of the factions, taken from a shorltlist which you guys have already drawn up based on what is historically feasible. (i.e from the sounds of it a scandinavian faction + extra german faction, despite being popular would most likely not make the shortlist due to historical and/or map considerations)

[paullus]

If we were to do such a thing, it would need to be a poll where the public couldn't see the results, so as to fit with our modus operandi. ;)

The Yuezhi are an interesting case.

[Morte66]

After playing a string of European campaigns, I'd like to add a third faction suggestion after the Helleno-Skythians and Syracuse: the Boii.

Based on their EB1 incarnation: their military mix is different from existing factions, they have numbers and wealth (mines), and they have a defensible capital. I've seen the Romani, Sweboz, Epeirotes, and Getai hit their borders or their walls at roughly the same time, which is a good mix of opposition (sword and spear infantry, skirmishers, light and heavy cavalry, sarissa phalanxes, horse archers...).

So they look like a pretty interesting faction to play, with their own military and multiple styles of opposition, and some room to expand and prosper. They bring something new to the mod, unlike say Pergamon which is pretty much KH2 (classical Greek military hemmed in by successor types). And as an AI faction they'd provide the oft-requested check on the Sweboz.

Also, I think I remember some of the EB team saying that there's relatively good historical information on them, and that they were more unified/organised than most candidates in that area at the start date.

[rorarii]

This might be interesting when it comes to influencing expansion directions, but I don't know how much was coincidence.

Excellent find Geof, but will it work in MIITW?

R

[Justiciar]

I'm thinking;
Bastarnoz
Kimbrioz
Gotanoz
Brigantae
Boii
Syracuse
Galatia
Bosphorus

That's probably 2 too many Germanic factions, but one can dream.

[geala]

It's more of a nightmare, isn't it?

It's a pity that Massilia is dismissed, I understand your reasons but on the map it would be a so easily defendable merchant city. Perhaps Rhodos could be a faction...? Ok, I'm already quiet.

[Bootsiuv]

I think the EB team should reconsider factions like Massillia, Syracuse, and Cyrene.

If the main reasons are lack of historical evidence, fine.

But the gameplay reasons you speak of....being a small hemmed-in faction with 1 or 2 provinces before you meet a superpower.

Those are often the funnest factions to play. I used to love Serbia in the XL mod of M:TW simply for that reason!

Personally, I think factions like Ptolemaioi and Arche Seleukiea can be harder than smaller factions....there's so much to do and take in right from the first turn of the game, it can almost feel a little overwhelming (so much so that I haven't even seriously tackled an AS campaign).

I just hope you'll remember that many of us are R:TW veterans at this point, who have lurked on these boards for years now. I think most of us will be able to take a small faction and do good things.

[I Am Herenow]

But if not playing as them, it might be a bit strange - especially for a player who's new to EB - to see "Faction Destroyed" after two turns. Moreover, it will ruin all the work that goes into creating that faction if the player never really has an opportunity to fight it unless he is bordering it. Not to mention that if the player were to go to war with a one-province faction, it would all be over in a turn or two, again wasting much of the team's effort as the player can't fully appreciate that faction's strengths and weaknesses.