Faction List for EB2?

[Ludens]

Is this because it was not easy to conquer historically or because it's a dumping ground for markers and stuff (in a bug report I posted about a wierd building in Tuat, bovi said it was a marker which he thought was in Terhazza)?

Probably both.

[CaesarAugustus]

We won't be expanding our map. MTW2 only allows 198 provinces, compared to RTWs 199 (so we even have to lose one). Both the Chinese and the Indians are far out of our designated area.

Not Gandhara, which was one of the four Mauryan satrapies that made up the Mauryan empire.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

manniskon barnan bedeutet Menschenkind:-)
Die Vangionen waren ein ziemlich kleiner und eher unbedeutender Stamm, die in etwa in der heutigen Kurpfalz/Nordbaden lebten - meine Heimat also.

Ich hatte mal gehört, dass barn schwedisch für Kind ist.

[kalkwerk]

Skandinavisch

[Foot]

Not Gandhara, which was one of the four Mauryan satrapies that made up the Mauryan empire.

I knew someone would pick me up on that. Yes we do have three indian provinces on the EB map, but it is debatable whether it would be worth even putting Gandhara in. Of course there are some plus-sides, such as they would finally rebel to someone proper, but there may be some other more deserving factions as we would not be able to simulate Gandhara's relationship to the Mauryan empire. This is the kind of stuff us EBers have to argue over, it is very taxing.

Foot

[Gaelic Rebel]

I really hope there's a Goidilic faction!

[Alexander777]

After reviewing the EB map, here are my top ten picks for new EB factions. I primarily picked these because I felt they would bring more balance to the game. Please feel free to comment on what specific factions would fit into these areas. I am not as big a history buff as some (but I would like to be ).

1. Baltic Faction: The area north of the Getai and east of the Sweboz is one of the most barren of the game. I think something should be there. The most likely faction would be the Aestii, a tribe in northern Poland whom thrived off the amber trade). The Lugii are also a possibility.

2. Southern/Eastern Germanian Faction: The Sweboz need way more competition (I've seen too many gigantic German Empires that have not encountered any other factions). The Belgae will take care of the North, so someone tell me of a good southern or southeastern Germanian Tribe!

3. Belgae: This faction would provide an interesting opponent for both the Aedui and the Sweboz.

4. Another Briton Faction (Goidilic all the way)! : The Casse need an opponent, and the Goidilic already have awesome factional units and history.
'Nuff said.

5. Celtiberians: An eastern Iberian (not Georgia) faction would liven up Iberia and also make it interesting for the Arveni. Plus the Celtiberians were supposedly famous warriors, so there would probably be interesting faction units.

6. Numidia: Carthage needs competition in Africa, and the Numidians are the ones to give it to them.

7. Syracuse: This faction would really make Sicily interesting. My only concern is that I wouldn't want it to be a carbon copy of the Koinon Hellnon. Anyone know of any unique Syracuse soldiers?

8. Pergamom/Galatia: One of these two faction should exist to fill the gap in western Asia Minor. They're both cool, but I'm not sure which one would win out....

9. India: I don't care if its the Indo-Greeks or a Marudyan satrapy, Baktria should not be able to walk into India without opposition!

10. Kyrene...or Scythia...: I wish both of these factions could exist, but theres not enough room. Kyrene would help keep Ptolmaioi attention in Africa and it would be cool to see a steppe war between Scythia and the Sarmatians (they would also help close the gap in Eastern Europe). Decisions...

Tell me what you guys think!!!!!!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I will bravely confirm that indeed, you have one of those correct.

[MiniMe]

I will bravely confirm that indeed, you have one of those correct.

Would you be so kind to confirm that Alexander777 was correct in his assumptions only once? ;-)

[blitzkrieg80]

Woot! somebody mentioned the Aestii- interesting people. They were mentioned from Tacitus into Viking times. That amber trade is serious business. ignore me im crazy...

[edyzmedieval]

He talked of Massalia or Massilia, which is today known as Marseille. And Marseille is situated in southern France, although some people might say it's a mauretanian town nowadays...

This is what happens when you have one of the first LCD's in the world... Really, I typed that from a very bad LCD, and the characters are weird.

Yes, Massalia is in France. Might be an option, but AFAIK, I don't know if they were such a big kingdom at the start of EB. Correct me if I am wrong.

Would you be so kind to confirm that Alexander777 was correct in his assumptions only once? ;-)

No.
"Occultus". Understand a bunch of tired Hetairoi.

Scythia wasn't as powerful in those times, as the Sauromatae closely took their place.

Siracuse - well, they have access to the Sicilians mercs, and they will also have mercenary Romani troops, just in the north.

[Laundreu]

Well, I don't think it could be the Goidils, as to properly show Ireland during the time you'd probably want to split the island up into four provinces, instead of the current two. Which is too bad; they'd get some reforms of their own, possibly triggered by conquest of the Iberian north and western coasts - keep in mind, South Ireland, parts of what would be Wales and Cornwall, Armorica, and parts of North and West Iberia were all very closely related culturally and probably politically. A full-grown Goidelic Empire would be a coastal, naval one - which would also be fascinating.

[roxanne]

Here are my thoughts about necessary factions for EB2

sorry i am just fishing the facts in my unreliabe brain ;-)

1. attalids/pergamon was a remarkable kingdom, gained independence from the seleucid and was allied to rome (which inherit the kingdom later on)... they had the second biggest library in the 'antique'
   
2. galatia was always a problem in central minor asia (the attalids were able to defeat them) also there is the letter to the galatian by paulus!
   
3. bythnia a small but wealthy kingdom north to the attalids and west to pontus
   
4. etruscan rome's opponent to the north (though i am not sure if they fit into the time period given)
   
5. illyria one of those tribe who where able to launch raids to the italian penisuela and 'forced' rome to conquer the adrian coast
   
6. syracuse just to mighty to be left out, also i like to recall that they called for roman help against carthage?
   
7. an iberian faction to give rome a harder time in north/east iberia which was a wealthy area but hard to control

for the sake of gameplay:

• faction east to sweboz, north of getai, west to sauromatae
• numidia - opponent to carthage in africa
• indian faction
• tracia - like in vanilla
• split sparta and athene
• crete - the island was a basis for piracy, rome put an end to that by conquering crete
• cyrene

further factions in great briton or the belgae do not make sense the focus of the time period at hand is alexanders empire and the mediterraen sea

[Foot]

further factions in great briton or the belgae do not make sense the focus of the time period at hand is alexanders empire and the mediterraen sea

only for those from that part of the world. Obviously the majority of literature is on this massive event, but it doesn't mean that there were not other equally important events going on elsewhere. We do not look at the world from a Roman or hellenic view of the world, rather we try to identify major players in the different areas of the world, and we view all areas equally. The mediterranean is no more important for the people who lived there than the far distant steppe of the wilds of northern britain.

Foot

[Laundreu]

further factions in great briton or the belgae do not make sense the focus of the time period at hand is alexanders empire and the mediterraen sea

Incorrect, sir; the focus of the writers of the time was primarily on the Hellenistic and Mediterranean world, yes...because the writers were invariably Hellenic or Roman writers. I wonder what biases will be inherent in their works~?

[roxanne]

sure roman and hellenic writers will focus on their part of the world (like the travel guide to the seven wonders)... but if you examine our roots it is the greek mythology, the bible and roman law and these are origined in the mediterrean... also the map is restricted to the known area to greek and roman historians... nonetheless as eb allows for a different version of history to be written, potential tribes capable of altering the outcome of events should be included... i do think they are mostly located around the mediterrean and not to be found in 'ireland' (no offence intended)... the 'germans', a bunch of tribes which could be abstracted by one, same to briton, two tribes in the steppe should be fine, celtic civs... but don't get me wrong i believe whatever factions will be in eb2 will be there for a good reason where-ever they are located...

thanks for a great game

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's my personal opinion that with seven new factions we complete the list of all factions that truly fit in our designs for EB1. The other three look to me to be gravy. There is a point where you get all of the ones that *must* be included given our parameters and then you have maybe 10-15 more that really are about equal. We still haven't decided on half of them, but we're close to having seven picked and finalized. I'm excited about doing some work on the new factions, and did a little family tree stuff on one of them today. Can't wait for those guys to get the map finalized and ported as the first step.

[kalkwerk]

Actually I have no problem with Syracuse, Pergamon, Numidia and so on being rebels from the start out. What Id like to see would be emerging factions: Numidia could be that, appearing under certain circumstances, roman rebels, cimbri, perhaps pergamon, chatti and so on.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We won't have emerging ones. Sorry.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

EB wants to have all factions playable, so that players can fully enjoy all factions. Since immerging factions aren't playable, they aren't really considered.

[Gaelic Rebel]

If a Goidilic faction is included in EB2 what types of new units would be created for the Goidils to supplement the current ones? Hard to say at this point in time?

[Laundreu]

If a Goidilic faction is included in EB2 what types of new units would be created for the Goidils to supplement the current ones? Hard to say at this point in time?

At the time of EB's start date - 272 BCE - there aren't any Goidils, in fact. They, as far as I'm aware, are thought to have immigrated to the island from Iberia sometime in the 2nd or 1st century BCE, fleeing Roman persecution and headed for the land farthest from Rome that they were culturally associated with - Ireland.

The fact that there was evidence of technological shifts and more large-scale expressions of power at the time - the Corlea Road, the Black Pig's Dike, the Dun of Drumsna, and other examples of contemporary monumental architecture - took place from the middle to the end of the 2nd century BCE (~150 BCE to ~100 BCE) implies some sort of change taking place on the island. Given how enigmatic ancient Irish history is, however, I hesitate to say anything for certain.

I'd really appreciate an actual expert on this bunch to show up, of course. Who is the Briton faction coordinator for EB, and could I beg for elucidation from him/her?

[Anthony]

When Goidils emerged exactly isn't fully known. It could have been in the early 3rd century BC at earliest, but even if they were, they would reform steadily, and would start with many pre-Gaelic units assuming we use them as a faction. Goidilic-style objects are found early, but their numbers are confusing, and imply a matter of confusion. We're discussing currently how to deal with them currently. I kind of teeter back and forth, thinking in historical terms, and how it'll affect gameplay and all. It is clear, regardless, they'd have reforms; in the case of starting as Britons, they'd reform rather like Romans, axing near the entire old unit selection and gaining access to a new set of units. In the case of starting under the influence of Gaels, it'd likely be a bit more confusing; a mixture of Gadels and 'Britons', which reforms steadily into more recognizable Gaels. There are other factors to the technology improvements in the 2nd century (increased trade being a big one), but one of them is most likely a vast emergence of Gaelic power, who were technologically superior to the pre-Gaelic inhabitants; it may just represent a shift of culture though in lower classes as well as the warrior body, which would hold most of the sheer political power. How slow or fast the change happened though is a matter of debate. In either event though, Gaels would need be present earlier to disseminate into the society (given they didn't start as Gaels, they were seperate tribes of Brythonic Irish and immigrant Iberian Irish tribes, and they intermingled their cultures, forming Gaels). Either way, should see something interesting once it's worked out. Essentially though, even if they started 'Goidilic', they'd not be, just Gadelic/proto-Gael aristocracy, with Brythonic units, and only two reforms, representing the shift to the Goidilic society sometime in the 2nd century BC, and then late iron age Gaels in the late 2nd century/early 1st century BC. If they start Brythonic, there'd be an additional reform to the Gadelic aristocracy format, so there'd be more reforms, with a shorter time between them (Gadel-aristocracy emerging around the late 3rd/early 2nd century, then Goidilic society in the mid-2nd century, then the late Gaelic emergence in the 1st century). The emergence of the outside tribes in Ireland that helped create Gaels is probably not a single event, but there were probably more coming from Iberia later, so there'd be a number of changes overtime either way.

[Dumbass]

I think it would make much more sense to have the massalyie faction instead of numidians, because the numidians are one little unwalled town, right next to Carthage, ready to get blitzed and destroyed almost straight away, whereas the massalyie are at the other end of the coast, with more stronger towns and they have expansion opportunities into Spain. Also the Massalyie were at war with Carthage and helped the romans, which could create a much more interesting situation.

[Laundreu]

Big Block O' Text

That's pretty interesting. Would the proto-Goidils, especially early on, be using Halstatt equipment instead of La Tene? Like I mentioned before, as I'm aware the La Tene technological package only made a major appearance in Ireland circa 150-100 BCE.

[Anthony]

Yes. They'd be more into Hallstatt-style axes, shortswords, helmets, etc. Virtually no mail to speak of, instead wearing scale armor as their upmost type of armor, or a girdle of vertical metal strips. Longswords only used by the most wealthy. Mind, Goidils used, largely, a type of shortsword near identical to the gladius most of the time (effectively more of a big dagger than a sword) anyway, but there were also long, broad-bladed swords, and La Tene longswords appear eventually, and with them, we find some exceptionally long blades now and again with long tangs, implying two-handed weapons (which would make sense, Irish druids and some champions are described as having used swords used in both hands, though most of them probably weren't so long, but given the nature of such an item, it'd most likely be a custom piece for the user, not some cheap 'sword' churned out for poor folks). Doing them would be a kind of complex operation either way.

[Laundreu]

Yes. They'd be more into Hallstatt-style axes, shortswords, helmets, etc. Virtually no mail to speak of, instead wearing scale armor as their upmost type of armor, or a girdle of vertical metal strips. Longswords only used by the most wealthy. Mind, Goidils used, largely, a type of shortsword near identical to the gladius most of the time (effectively more of a big dagger than a sword) anyway, but there were also long, broad-bladed swords, and La Tene longswords appear eventually, and with them, we find some exceptionally long blades now and again with long tangs, implying two-handed weapons (which would make sense, Irish druids and some champions are described as having used swords used in both hands, though most of them probably weren't so long, but given the nature of such an item, it'd most likely be a custom piece for the user, not some cheap 'sword' churned out for poor folks). Doing them would be a kind of complex operation either way.

I'm almost in favor of the Goidils now, just because their military sounds like an awesome thing.

[Anthony]

A lot of folks misconcieve their similarities to Gauls and Britons. They were quite unique for their place in the world, and they'd certainly be a different view of the world. They're also advantageous in that we know a surprising amount about how their armies and such organized, the types of soldiers they had, etc., as they don't really change much based on archaeology, between when they become definably Gaels at all strata of society (not just an aristocracy), and when they become Christians and start writing extensively. The next big change for them would be the viking invasions, so we get a lengthy period of evidence from which we detail what they carried, how they fought, what soldiers ranked where in society, how they arrayed their armies, the difference between clan/tribal 'wars' and actual fullscale wars (which is a distinct difference in how battles and such were performed). A lot of the agitating nature of doing many factions is we don't really know much about how they viewed fighting, and we just have to make some assumptions based on as logical an assessment as we can make, and look at similar or related people and try and draw on them a bit for an understanding of how X faction would operate. We wouldn't have that issue so much with an early Gaelic people, because we know so much more about them, as in, how they viewed things and operated, then we do about people like the Gauls.

[Alexander777]

I am extremely happy to know that my list got some debate going and even got noticed by the EB celebrity gossip reporter! I am also glad that I actually got one of the factions right (although I hope that by the time EB1 roles around at least two of those factions will be in it). I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the one I guessed correctly is the Belgae (since it says in the eleutheroi page that they were considered before..at least I think it said that). I'm glad there seems to be support for a Goidilic faction too. I think it would be neat to have them start out with more Briton like units, then have a reform and be able to get the hammer of doom guys and the Irish Vasci Shock Infantry Also, I do agree that the town of Massylia would be in a better position for a western African faction, but is there enough historical evidence to give it factional units??

[Ignoramus]

An EB membership! An EB membership! My kingdom for an EB membership!

I can't wait to see what those new factions are.