Faction List for EB2?

[WarpGhost]

Casse represent something of a particularly questionable faction because they arent just peripheral, they're peripheral and strongly seperated geographically, which takes them to a whole different level of peripheral. Saba arent quite as bad, but the empty distances involved do put them towards that level too. Even Sarmations, Saka and Sweboz have regular and notable contact with 2-3 other factions. Thats because though peripheral, their geography doesnt create significant inherent problems to their ability to impact the game. Also, dont forget that the more factions you add to the periphery, the more contact you create for those around them too.

[athanaric]

OTOH, Casse have their close relatives on the "continent", which might be a cause for their interference on behalf of the Belgae, should a foreign faction (Swêboz, Romani, ...) try to take the "Belgian" provinces. Of course, should an independent Belgian faction be included in EB II, this argument is kind of weakened...

[WarpGhost]

OTOH, Casse have their close relatives on the "continent", which might be a cause for their interference on behalf of the Belgae, should a foreign faction (Swêboz, Romani, ...) try to take the "Belgian" provinces. Of course, should an independent Belgian faction be included in EB II, this argument is kind of weakened...

The problem with that is two-fold as I see it:

1) The AI isnt exactly proven at being able to cope with it. If both Casse and the other factions were able to easily handle the geographic obstacles, it wouldnt be a problem at all (if only Casse can, then you create the additional problems as when a human plays them, rather than really solving anything).

2) You create the situation whereby nothing is solved if their influence is removed from Begium (it immediatly reverts to the same geographic problem as current); but also where they also have untouched heartlands from which to generate money (and possibly the occassional 'naval invasion' to drop off reinforcements, which the AI presumably manages better than actual aggressive naval invasions), which makes their influence disproportionate to the Belgium region itself when they retain it.

[bobbin]

You guys are forgetting EBII's going to be on Kingdoms, naval invasions are much more common in that game which will mean the Casse won't be as isolated (or safe) as they are in EB.

[lobf]

OTOH, Casse have their close relatives on the "continent", which might be a cause for their interference on behalf of the Belgae, should a foreign faction (Swêboz, Romani, ...) try to take the "Belgian" provinces. Of course, should an independent Belgian faction be included in EB II, this argument is kind of weakened...

Did the "Casse" (I expect a name change, too) actually do this? Is there evidence of them interfering in continental politics?

You guys are forgetting EBII's going to be on Kingdoms, naval invasions are much more common in that game which will mean the Casse won't be as isolated (or safe) as they are in EB.

That is no justification for a faction. In fact, if there's good naval invasions, it would be a plus to not have a faction, IMO. It will make it a prize to be contested over by the continental powers, and not just a money generating machine for whomever starts there.

[The General]

Did the "Casse" (I expect a name change, too) actually do this? Is there evidence of them interfering in continental politics?

Yes. Well, Divitiacus was a Belgae king, but he held power in Britain, from which we can deduct that there was interaction between the two regions.

That is no justification for a faction. In fact, if there's good naval invasions, it would be a plus to not have a faction, IMO. It will make it a prize to be contested over by the continental powers, and not just a money generating machine for whomever starts there.

Uhm, what? If anything, creation of cash cow regions is a terrible reason not to include a faction.

Even if Britain was not as developed as Gaul, Cassivellaunus had waged war against several other British tribes, so there was effort by tribes to exert control over each other through the use of arms and create hegemony, and not just patronus-cliens-relationships.

Also, has it not been mentioned that all the factions of EBI are going to make it in EBII? (Unless I'm gravely mistaken)

[lobf]

Yes. Well, Divitiacus was a Belgae king, but he held power in Britain, from which we can deduct that there was interaction between the two regions.

100+ years after the start date?

Not to mention, this kind of supports my case that the isles were a prize for the continental powers rather than the home of a faction-worthy political institution.

Uhm, what? If anything, creation of cash cow regions is a terrible reason not to include a faction.

It doesn't seem accurate for that region at that time. I don't think Britain was a center of great wealth in the world, which it turns into once the isles are united (because of the way the game engine works)

Even if Britain was not as developed as Gaul, Cassivellaunus had waged war against several other British tribes, so there was effort by tribes to exert control over each other through the use of arms and create hegemony, and not just patronus-cliens-relationships.

Are you saying this is unique? Name a tribe that doesn't wage war with neighboring tribes. I'm wondering when a significant political entity actually emerged in the Isles, rather than a series of waning and waxing tribes.

Also, has it not been mentioned that all the factions of EBI are going to make it in EBII? (Unless I'm gravely mistaken)

Yes, it has. I'm just disagreeing with one selection.

They're the Catuvellauni of later times who Caeser accused of supporting the gauls and belgae in their wars with him.


It also makes any faction there more active on the continent and more open to invasion by continental powers which is essentaily fixes (hopefully) the main problems people have with the Casse (that they never seem to do anything beyond conquering britain and they never face any real threat from other factions).

What did the Catuvellauni accomplish?

[bobbin]

What did the Catuvellauni accomplish?

Not much beyond making life a little more difficult for Caeser in his Gallic wars, the point is they tried. As Brave Sir Robin says many factions already in EB didn't accomplish much, the reason they're in is because the had the ambition to conquer other lands.

[WarpGhost]

Also, has it not been mentioned that all the factions of EBI are going to make it in EBII? (Unless I'm gravely mistaken)

Yes, but the EB team likes to make the point that its always open to reconsidering what its doing. So unless thats untrue, there's a fair number of people who still arent convinced about Casse, and their questions havent been addressed (although the official Saba answers I've seen have been more hand-wavey than solid game design sense, so its possible Casse inclusion isnt being taken as a mechanics question, as most non-EB posters are approaching it here; part of the justification for Saba I've seen was because of the importance of the Arabian peninsula in modern times, rather than a purely ancient history approach).

[bobbin]

Did the "Casse" (I expect a name change, too) actually do this? Is there evidence of them interfering in continental politics?

They're the Catuvellauni of later times who Caeser accused of supporting the gauls and belgae in their wars with him.

That is no justification for a faction. In fact, if there's good naval invasions, it would be a plus to not have a faction, IMO. It will make it a prize to be contested over by the continental powers, and not just a money generating machine for whomever starts there.

It also makes any faction there more active on the continent and more open to invasion by continental powers which is essentaily fixes (hopefully) the main problems people have with the Casse (that they never seem to do anything beyond conquering britain and they never face any real threat from other factions).

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

What did the Catuvellauni accomplish?

Several factions accomplished very little and are yet included. KH springs to mind.

Factions are likely included based on historical importance, gameplay reasons, and unique flavor.

Casse have a small amount of historical importance, but for gameplay reasons they are important and they certainly add unique flavor due to heroic units and reliance on chariots instead of cavalry.

[lobf]

Several factions accomplished very little and are yet included. KH springs to mind.

Factions are likely included based on historical importance, gameplay reasons, and unique flavor.

Casse have a small amount of historical importance, but for gameplay reasons they are important and they certainly add unique flavor due to heroic units and reliance on chariots instead of cavalry.

Gameplay shouldn't and, in theory, isn't a consideration. By the team's admission in the past.

Not much beyond making life a little more difficult for Caeser in his Gallic wars, the point is they tried. As Brave Sir Robin says many factions already in EB didn't accomplish much, the reason they're in is because the had the ambition to conquer other lands.

By your own admission, their entire role in history was defensive, and they show up 100+ years after the start date.

I don't think there's any comparison between the Greek city-states and the B.C. tribes of England in term of cultural development, addition to the historical record, and influence in world politics.

[bobbin]

By your own admission, their entire role in history was defensive, and they show up 100+ years after the start date.

I never said their role was defensive, they were involved in wars away from their homelands helping their allies on the continent they didn't have to fight they chose to, thats a pretty agressive attitude in my eyes.

Maybe they're mentioned first by caeser but archeology no doubt attests to their presence long before that and IIRC the faction leader is mentioned in Goidelic legend (and supported by archeology) as conquering all of the south west of britain around the start date.

[ziegenpeter]

Casse represent something of a particularly questionable faction because they arent just peripheral, they're peripheral and strongly seperated geographically, which takes them to a whole different level of peripheral. Saba arent quite as bad, but the empty distances involved do put them towards that level too. Even Sarmations, Saka and Sweboz have regular and notable contact with 2-3 other factions. Thats because though peripheral, their geography doesnt create significant inherent problems to their ability to impact the game. Also, dont forget that the more factions you add to the periphery, the more contact you create for those around them too.

Agreed.