Faction List for EB2?

[bobbin]

By your own admission, their entire role in history was defensive, and they show up 100+ years after the start date.

I never said their role was defensive, they were involved in wars away from their homelands helping their allies on the continent they didn't have to fight they chose to, thats a pretty agressive attitude in my eyes.

Maybe they're mentioned first by caeser but archeology no doubt attests to their presence long before that and IIRC the faction leader is mentioned in Goidelic legend (and supported by archeology) as conquering all of the south west of britain around the start date.

[lobf]

I never said their role was defensive, they were involved in wars away from their homelands helping their allies on the continent they didn't have to fight they chose to, thats a pretty agressive attitude in my eyes.

Interesting. Source?

Maybe they're mentioned first by caeser but archeology no doubt attests to their presence long before that and IIRC the faction leader is mentioned in Goidelic legend (and supported by archeology) as conquering all of the south west of britain around the start date.

Source for the Goidelic legend?

And certainly archaeology will attest to the presence of humans on the Isles. I'm contesting that they were a significant power at the time the game starts. Hell, even 100s of years later.

[ziegenpeter]

Hey lobf, it seems that many members of the .org consider it much more polite if your request for a source is a longer sentence.

[lobf]

Hey lobf, it seems that many members of the .org consider it much more polite if your request for a source is a longer sentence.

If you make a claim, be prepared to cite your evidence. I shouldn't need to charm you into having a proper discussion.

Source?

I didn't make a positive existential claim. I can't be asked to cite evidence to support that something didn't happen.

You'd have to ask someone from the team for that one too, I got it from the biography of the Casse faction leader (again I'm willing to trust them in this), I'm guessing its from one of the various Irish "Cycles" stories that cover the early history of ireland.

New here, are ye? :)

What do you mean you got it from the biography of one of the Casse leaders? You mean you heard it was from the biography of one of the Casse leaders?

A quick look gives:
Commentarii de Bello Gallico 3.9 Where Caeser mentions Britons joining the Veneti in their fight against him.
Commentarii de Bello Gallico 4.20 Mentions Caeser's reason for invading Britain, ie they were providing assistance to the Gauls.

I understand where you're going with this. Yes, they provided material assistance to the Gauls. On the other hand, Poland provides (or provided) material assistance to the US in Iraq. That doesn't make them a major world power. One doesn't necessarily follow the other.

Now i know this is all long after the start date but i imagine archeology testifies to similar things a lot further back in time. I'm no archeologist so i wouldn't know what sources were used but EB has team members who are so I'm willing to trust their decision in this matter.

It would just be nice if someone would come out and show us whatever evidence they have.

If ye are really that interested in lPRIA Britain, there are a couple of books you need to have a look at.

Iron Age Communities in Britain and Ireland, Barry Cunliffe. The bible.
An Imperial Possession, Mattingly. Excellent.
The Britons, Snyder. Very Good.
The Iron Age in Northern Britain, Harding
Prehistoric Britain, Darvill
Ancient Britain, Dyer
The Forts of Celtic Britain, Osprey

I have to say that the suggestion that 3rd BCE Britain is not prima facie worthy of at least one faction is totally ludicrous. Do some reading.

I would love to. I've been asking for something to look at for ages. That era and that part of the world fascinates me, I look forward to reading those.

Would you mind summarizing some of the main rationales behind their inclusion for me?

Even as early as 272 BCE, Graeco-Roman influence was becoming profound in Continental Celtic/Gallic societies. In Britain we have the chance to imagine a society with much less cultural adulteration. Also, the archaeological record is tremendously rich. Cissbury, Maiden Castle and Danebury are some of the largest multivalate hill forts in Europe. Hengtisbury Head was one of the busiest ports. Some of the best overall examples of Celtic craftwork, shields, helmets, swords and chariots come from Britain.

From what era?

The problem of course, is that the historical record does not begin until much later, so that we do not have a narrative to rely on for our story: but does that mean that we should abandon these people to the dustbin of history? In EB we are more inclined to take up the challenge and attempt to speak for history's silent people. All it takes is a little creativity.

I guess I'm worried that a very conjectured interpretation of these people will make it into the final product and be taken as gospel by the general public. I'd just like to understand what you are basing your recreation off of.

Re: the name. I won't tell you what we are going to do about that yet. 'Casse' is of course a guess, as we don't even have numismatic evidence for the period, but it is a very good guess nonetheless. The Cassi are one of the tribes mentioned by Caesar, who is basically our earliest textual source, and in addition 'Cassi' is an element in many other kinds of names. But there are some other possibilities. Anyone know what they might be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cassi



I'm at work, BTW, so this is kind of a rushed reply.

[Foot]

Lobf, it's great see you back on form. We've missed you!

However, while I do enjoy your "skipping record" style of conversation, perhaps its time to move onto another subject. We have told you and we will always tell you, "We do not have full records of all evidence that was bought forward during the early period of EBI (and throughout development there have been gaps). We cannot provide you with the evidence you so desperately crave at the moment. We are researching all factions and areas of our mod over again, and collating this information in a central depository so that we can check it in the future. We may or may not release this resource at some future date. We cannot talk about what we have planned for the Casse, or the British Isles in general, as we have not reached a point where we have the development at a level necessary to preview this stuff.

Your constant and consistent (I would say a very large majority of your posts on our two forums here is on the subject of the Casse) is unnecessary at this point (if it was at any point). Your hijacking of threads so that they are solely about this subject, your dominance in them, and your rather ungentlemanly behaviour (which you admit to) is frustrating and long overdue an end.

EBII is more than just a one-horse mod, and I think you've beaten this dead horse topic enough. If the Casse come up again, and some "dodgy" evidence is brought forward by fan, feel free to link them to my post and let them know that all evidence in EBII is being researched again. Then move on and [citation needed] our other factions, as they sorely need your attention!

Foot

[lobf]

Lobf, it's great see you back on form. We've missed you!

However, while I do enjoy your "skipping record" style of conversation, perhaps its time to move onto another subject. We have told you and we will always tell you, "We do not have full records of all evidence that was bought forward during the early period of EBI (and throughout development there have been gaps). We cannot provide you with the evidence you so desperately crave at the moment. We are researching all factions and areas of our mod over again, and collating this information in a central depository so that we can check it in the future. We may or may not release this resource at some future date. We cannot talk about what we have planned for the Casse, or the British Isles in general, as we have not reached a point where we have the development at a level necessary to preview this stuff.

Your constant and consistent (I would say a very large majority of your posts on our two forums here is on the subject of the Casse) is unnecessary at this point (if it was at any point). Your hijacking of threads so that they are solely about this subject, your dominance in them, and your rather ungentlemanly behaviour (which you admit to) is frustrating and long overdue an end.

EBII is more than just a one-horse mod, and I think you've beaten this dead horse topic enough. If the Casse come up again, and some "dodgy" evidence is brought forward by fan, feel free to link them to my post and let them know that all evidence in EBII is being researched again. Then move on and [citation needed] our other factions, as they sorely need your attention!

Foot

Thanks Foot!

However, I think you've misunderstood me. I understand the old Casse stuff is either missing or non-existent. I'm not asking for that. I know that the faction is to be included in the next iteration of your wonderful mod, and I'm wondering, since we can ignore much of the older evidence, what it is you will be using to rebuild that culture?

I also know that there's so much more to EB than the European tribes. I'm just not so enamored with most of the rest of the world at that time as I am with the Europeans. Like the founders of this project, I long to see accurate, reasonable interpretations of the lives of these people. This isn't just a matter of challenging shaky assertions, but I want to know and learn about them, and I'd like to look at the same sources you do.

I know I'm a dick. Maybe it's my line of work (I work in the film business... nobody's got any patience for nonsense.) and I'm sorry that I bring some of that impatience or aggression to the forums. I just really like the barbarians, and I really like to talk about them. And I really like to argue. And I really don't like when people make assertions based on rumor or hearsay. (as happened in this very topic with the "goidelic legend")

Anyways, I'm trying to move on. Thanks for tolerating me (barely) and I look forward to seeing the new material you bring to the table in the future.

[bobbin]

And I really don't like when people make assertions based on rumor or hearsay. (as happened in this very topic with the "goidelic legend")

A bit harsh, it was based on what I read in the game, i don't have the time to check every last piece of information so i assumed the EB team, who spent a lot of time and effort making the mod, were more informed than me in this matter and included it for a good reason.

Anyway just my final 2cents, it has been a intersting discussion.

[Apázlinemjó]

And certainly archaeology will attest to the presence of humans on the Isles. I'm contesting that they were a significant power at the time the game starts. Hell, even 100s of years later.

Source?

[bobbin]

Interesting. Source?

A quick look gives:
Commentarii de Bello Gallico 3.9 Where Caeser mentions Britons joining the Veneti in their fight against him.
Commentarii de Bello Gallico 4.20 Mentions Caeser's reason for invading Britain, ie they were providing assistance to the Gauls.

Now i know this is all long after the start date but i imagine archeology testifies to similar things a lot further back in time. I'm no archeologist so i wouldn't know what sources were used but EB has team members who are so I'm willing to trust their decision in this matter.

Source for the Goidelic legend?

You'd have to ask someone from the team for that one too, I got it from the biography of the Casse faction leader (again I'm willing to trust them in this), I'm guessing its from one of the various Irish "Cycles" stories that cover the early history of ireland.

[Ludens]

You'd have to ask someone from the team for that one too, I got it from the biography of the Casse faction leader (again I'm willing to trust them in this), I'm guessing its from one of the various Irish "Cycles" stories that cover the early history of ireland.

I think this one of those bits of EB for which the sources could not be found. A lot of the team's early Celtic material hasn't been properly referenced, so the team decided to redo most or all Celtic material for EB2.

[bobbin]

Ah ok scratch off that one then.

[oudysseos]

If ye are really that interested in lPRIA Britain, there are a couple of books you need to have a look at.

Iron Age Communities in Britain and Ireland, Barry Cunliffe. The bible.
An Imperial Possession, Mattingly. Excellent.
The Britons, Snyder. Very Good.
The Iron Age in Northern Britain, Harding
Prehistoric Britain, Darvill
Ancient Britain, Dyer
The Forts of Celtic Britain, Osprey

I have to say that the suggestion that 3rd BCE Britain is not prima facie worthy of at least one faction is totally ludicrous. Do some reading.

Even as early as 272 BCE, Graeco-Roman influence was becoming profound in Continental Celtic/Gallic societies. In Britain we have the chance to imagine a society with much less cultural adulteration. Also, the archaeological record is tremendously rich. Cissbury, Maiden Castle and Danebury are some of the largest multivalate hill forts in Europe. Hengtisbury Head was one of the busiest ports. Some of the best overall examples of Celtic craftwork, shields, helmets, swords and chariots come from Britain.

The problem of course, is that the historical record does not begin until much later, so that we do not have a narrative to rely on for our story: but does that mean that we should abandon these people to the dustbin of history? In EB we are more inclined to take up the challenge and attempt to speak for history's silent people. All it takes is a little creativity.

Re: the name. I won't tell you what we are going to do about that yet. 'Casse' is of course a guess, as we don't even have numismatic evidence for the period, but it is a very good guess nonetheless. The Cassi are one of the tribes mentioned by Caesar, who is basically our earliest textual source, and in addition 'Cassi' is an element in many other kinds of names. But there are some other possibilities. Anyone know what they might be?