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Thread: abortion clarification
i have a question for some of the pro-lifers out there. it's a position i've seen some people take and i don't quite understand it. the position is that abortion is wrong and it's murder unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother or it's a case of rape and incest then it's ok.
my question is, why is it ok then? if it is an innocent baby, why is it ok to murder an innocent baby if the mother's life is in danger by the pregnancy or if the baby is a product of rape or incest? the baby has nothing to do with the cirucmstances of it's birth. you wouldn't penalize the mother in such circumstances, so why would you penalize the baby?
my question is, why is it ok then? if it is an innocent baby, why is it ok to murder an innocent baby if the mother's life is in danger by the pregnancy or if the baby is a product of rape or incest? the baby has nothing to do with the cirucmstances of it's birth. you wouldn't penalize the mother in such circumstances, so why would you penalize the baby?
Abortion tends to be a big gray area, hardly anyone is pure pro-choice either, sometimes people need to comprimise between their own idealogies, do you save the child or the mother ? Tough choice for anyone to make. Only zealots would find a choice like that easy.
Originally Posted by doc_bean:
hardly anyone is pure pro-choice either
Well, I'm one of them. Why? Simply because I do not in any way consider a fetus a human being or life in any way, and thus there is no "life" to kill, only a thing to remove. Kinda like an amputation....hardly anyone is pure pro-choice either
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Well, I'm one of them. Why? Simply because I do not in any way consider a fetus a human being or life in any way, and thus there is no "life" to kill, only a thing to remove. Kinda like an amputation....
You're pro partial birth abortions ?Well, I'm one of them. Why? Simply because I do not in any way consider a fetus a human being or life in any way, and thus there is no "life" to kill, only a thing to remove. Kinda like an amputation....
EDIT: and just to make this a bit more controversial, suppose a woman is in labour, can she still chose to abort ? What abouta day before she's due ? A week ? Welcome to the gray area...
Originally Posted by doc_bean:
You're pro partial birth abortions ?
EDIT: and just to make this a bit more controversial, suppose a woman is in labour, can she still chose to abort ? What abouta day before she's due ? A week ? Welcome to the gray area...
That's not much of a gray area. No one would approve of that.You're pro partial birth abortions ?
EDIT: and just to make this a bit more controversial, suppose a woman is in labour, can she still chose to abort ? What abouta day before she's due ? A week ? Welcome to the gray area...
Now, 22 weeks in, that's a gray area...
Originally Posted by BDC:
That's not much of a gray area. No one would approve of that.
Now, 22 weeks in, that's a gray area...
It's dark gray That's not much of a gray area. No one would approve of that.
Now, 22 weeks in, that's a gray area...
think the opposite view held by pro-lifers that the morning after pill should be illegal is as extreme, though might not appeal to people's emotions as much.
I should have also added that the child wasn't handicapped in any way and that the mother is not at risk.
Late abortions should not be legal because it is a big operation, abortions should take place within the first few weeks, when it's still minor.
But no, I don't consider anything as "life" until it is born, one way or another. It would be rather hard to abort a day before its due without giving birth to it and then whacking it...
But no, I don't consider anything as "life" until it is born, one way or another. It would be rather hard to abort a day before its due without giving birth to it and then whacking it...
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Late abortions should not be legal because it is a big operation, abortions should take place within the first few weeks, when it's still minor.
But no, I don't consider anything as "life" until it is born, one way or another. It would be rather hard to abort a day before its due without giving birth to it and then whacking it...
See, you do have a gray area, you consider some abortions worse than others.Late abortions should not be legal because it is a big operation, abortions should take place within the first few weeks, when it's still minor.
But no, I don't consider anything as "life" until it is born, one way or another. It would be rather hard to abort a day before its due without giving birth to it and then whacking it...
Originally Posted by doc_bean:
See, you do have a gray area, you consider some abortions worse than others.
Nah, not really, at least not in an ethical way. It's best for the mother that the abortion is done as early as possible, but I have no problems with late abortions. If it's OK with the mother, than it's OK with me.See, you do have a gray area, you consider some abortions worse than others.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Nah, not really, at least not in an ethical way. It's best for the mother that the abortion is done as early as possible, but I have no problems with late abortions. If it's OK with the mother, than it's OK with me.
Okay, then you're a bit of an extremist Nah, not really, at least not in an ethical way. It's best for the mother that the abortion is done as early as possible, but I have no problems with late abortions. If it's OK with the mother, than it's OK with me.
Don't worry there are enough of those on both sides, but I do believe that the majority of people take a somewhat less extreme stance. At least those who've given it serious thought.
Originally Posted by doc_bean:
Okay, then you're a bit of an extremist
Don't worry there are enough of those on both sides, but I do believe that the majority of people take a somewhat less extreme stance. At least those who've given it serious thought.
I have given it serious thought, and I know I'm quite extreme...Okay, then you're a bit of an extremist
Don't worry there are enough of those on both sides, but I do believe that the majority of people take a somewhat less extreme stance. At least those who've given it serious thought.
My principle is simply that "when life begins" is a question without an answer, and as such left to the individual to figure out. Thus, I don't believe there should be any laws against it, the only thing stopping it should be the mothers ethics and conscience... And of course, the limits in the medical field...
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
I have given it serious thought, and I know I'm quite extreme...
My principle is simply that "when life begins" is a question without an answer, and as such left to the individual to figure out. Thus, I don't believe there should be any laws against it, the only thing stopping it should be the mothers ethics and conscience... And of course, the limits in the medical field...
So an abortion at 8 months, when if the baby was born it'd be absolutely fine, is ok?I have given it serious thought, and I know I'm quite extreme...
My principle is simply that "when life begins" is a question without an answer, and as such left to the individual to figure out. Thus, I don't believe there should be any laws against it, the only thing stopping it should be the mothers ethics and conscience... And of course, the limits in the medical field...
I don't think there are any groups that think that. It's just horrible.
If it's ok with the mother, it's ok with me...
But yeah, I know I'm quite alone in this field
But yeah, I know I'm quite alone in this field
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
If it's ok with the mother, it's ok with me...
But yeah, I know I'm quite alone in this field
It'd probably be safer for the mother to just give birth or have a C-section and give the baby up...If it's ok with the mother, it's ok with me...
But yeah, I know I'm quite alone in this field
Of course. Which is why someone taking an abortion weeks before a birth will happen about once in a century....
I don't see any reason why that one-in-a-million shot should be outlawed though... She'll have to have an extraordinary reason for wanting to choose an abortion at that stage...
I don't see any reason why that one-in-a-million shot should be outlawed though... She'll have to have an extraordinary reason for wanting to choose an abortion at that stage...
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
She'll have to have an extraordinary reason for wanting to choose an abortion at that stage...
What extraordinary reasons do you have in mind?She'll have to have an extraordinary reason for wanting to choose an abortion at that stage...
And should she be refused an abortion if she doesn't have one?
Originally Posted by :
My principle is simply that "when life begins" is a question without an answer, and as such left to the individual to figure out. Thus, I don't believe there should be any laws against it,
Ok life begins at 18. Until then your parents can abort you at any time. My principle is simply that "when life begins" is a question without an answer, and as such left to the individual to figure out. Thus, I don't believe there should be any laws against it,
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Ok life begins at 18. Until then your parents can abort you at any time.
After walking through the town centre on the weekend thats a position I can support.Ok life begins at 18. Until then your parents can abort you at any time.
And abortion should need the agreement of both parents, when both parents are known and obviously not including rape etc.
Originally Posted by Ja'chyra:
After walking through the town centre on the weekend thats a position I can support.
And abortion should need the agreement of both parents, when both parents are known and obviously not including rape etc.
Now you are confusing a woman's right to do whatever she wants to herself and birth control...After walking through the town centre on the weekend thats a position I can support.
And abortion should need the agreement of both parents, when both parents are known and obviously not including rape etc.
Originally Posted by Fenring:
What extraordinary reasons do you have in mind?
And should she be refused an abortion if she doesn't have one?
I can't think of any reason, as it the situation is so hypothetical that I can't even imagine it.What extraordinary reasons do you have in mind?
And should she be refused an abortion if she doesn't have one?
If she should be refused an abortion if she doesn't have a reason? Nobody takes an abortion without a reason, so that isn't a problem. How "extraordinary" it is, can only be judged by herself. And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
Originally Posted by :
simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
Pretty life changing for the child as well. It has very minor consequences for the mother in comparison.simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Ok life begins at 18. Until then your parents can abort you at any time.
As a daddy lemur who gets way too little sleep, I heartily endorse the Gawain Policy on abortion. We should be able to terminate our progeny at any time, for any reason. That'll learn 'em.Ok life begins at 18. Until then your parents can abort you at any time.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Pretty life changing for the child as well. It has very minor consequences for the mother in comparison.
What child? A child is a young human being, which has been born... No birth, no child :)Pretty life changing for the child as well. It has very minor consequences for the mother in comparison.
First of all, 1.5 million fetus aborted/babies killed a year can't be wrong can it? It is after all big business a moral issue.
Motherly Peril
This is a case where going to term would cause the mother's death or going anywhere close enough to term where c-section cannot preserve the life of the baby would cause the mother's death. This also goes to a sense of integrity in the Hippocratic oath. Both actions either to abort or not abort in this case goes toward the preservation of life.
Rape/Incest
When a woman is raped, she is robbed of her reproductive responsibility while an abortion robs her of motherhood. However, you will find it interesting that studies show women who have aborted after rape feel more violated by the abortion than the rape. In fact most resent their rape being used by pro-abortion activists. There is some literature out there which is written by people conceived in rape.
Often in cases of incest, the argument focuses on the genetic fitness of the child to be. When I think of this I'm reminded of a doctor's appointment we had during our pregnancy with my son. The doctor's came back with tests stating that there was a good chance he would have Trisome 21. The doctor said they could direct us to information that could help with our decision. Then proceeded to hand us abortion literature. When we asked about further testing the doctor stated that risks to the fetus would be high and not encouraged. Five months later, son was born, healthy as could be, no genetic defects or anything to worry about.
I thought maybe I was alone until I heard that the same thing happened to my brother, half a nation a way in Wa. state when expecting his daughter.
The Father
The fact that a fetus can either be aborted or carried to term completely of the mother's choice while the state forces responsibility upon the father when taken to term and robs him of responsibility when aborted is an incredible double standard. You offer the woman the choice of being responsible, but the father has none.
The reality
Abortion is protected under due process law, however unfortunate, it is legal and 1.5 million a year are performed. Abortion robs the population of yet another responsibility, it even reshapes the the oath of our medical personnel, it is a moral fiber which once cut resonates in importance greater than the singular issue.
In a Burger King kind of world where you pay your money and make your choice, a people should learn to deal with the consequences and not look to be set free from them.
Originally Posted by nokhor:
i have a question for some of the pro-lifers out there. it's a position i've seen some people take and i don't quite understand it. the position is that abortion is wrong and it's murder unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother or it's a case of rape and incest then it's ok.
For me personally, abortion is morally and ethically wrong allowing for the only exceptions in cases where a pregnant mother's life is threatened. Why?i have a question for some of the pro-lifers out there. it's a position i've seen some people take and i don't quite understand it. the position is that abortion is wrong and it's murder unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother or it's a case of rape and incest then it's ok.
Motherly Peril
This is a case where going to term would cause the mother's death or going anywhere close enough to term where c-section cannot preserve the life of the baby would cause the mother's death. This also goes to a sense of integrity in the Hippocratic oath. Both actions either to abort or not abort in this case goes toward the preservation of life.
Rape/Incest
When a woman is raped, she is robbed of her reproductive responsibility while an abortion robs her of motherhood. However, you will find it interesting that studies show women who have aborted after rape feel more violated by the abortion than the rape. In fact most resent their rape being used by pro-abortion activists. There is some literature out there which is written by people conceived in rape.
Often in cases of incest, the argument focuses on the genetic fitness of the child to be. When I think of this I'm reminded of a doctor's appointment we had during our pregnancy with my son. The doctor's came back with tests stating that there was a good chance he would have Trisome 21. The doctor said they could direct us to information that could help with our decision. Then proceeded to hand us abortion literature. When we asked about further testing the doctor stated that risks to the fetus would be high and not encouraged. Five months later, son was born, healthy as could be, no genetic defects or anything to worry about.
I thought maybe I was alone until I heard that the same thing happened to my brother, half a nation a way in Wa. state when expecting his daughter.
The Father
The fact that a fetus can either be aborted or carried to term completely of the mother's choice while the state forces responsibility upon the father when taken to term and robs him of responsibility when aborted is an incredible double standard. You offer the woman the choice of being responsible, but the father has none.
The reality
Abortion is protected under due process law, however unfortunate, it is legal and 1.5 million a year are performed. Abortion robs the population of yet another responsibility, it even reshapes the the oath of our medical personnel, it is a moral fiber which once cut resonates in importance greater than the singular issue.
In a Burger King kind of world where you pay your money and make your choice, a people should learn to deal with the consequences and not look to be set free from them.
Originally Posted by nokhor:
i have a question for some of the pro-lifers out there. it's a position i've seen some people take and i don't quite understand it. the position is that abortion is wrong and it's murder unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother or it's a case of rape and incest then it's ok.
my question is, why is it ok then? if it is an innocent baby, why is it ok to murder an innocent baby if the mother's life is in danger by the pregnancy or if the baby is a product of rape or incest? the baby has nothing to do with the cirucmstances of it's birth. you wouldn't penalize the mother in such circumstances, so why would you penalize the baby?
You bring up a tough moral issue. The mother is not at fault, but then neither is the baby. I know South Dakota tried to pass a law outlawing all abortions, even incest and rape, except when a mother was going to die. i have a question for some of the pro-lifers out there. it's a position i've seen some people take and i don't quite understand it. the position is that abortion is wrong and it's murder unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother or it's a case of rape and incest then it's ok.
my question is, why is it ok then? if it is an innocent baby, why is it ok to murder an innocent baby if the mother's life is in danger by the pregnancy or if the baby is a product of rape or incest? the baby has nothing to do with the cirucmstances of it's birth. you wouldn't penalize the mother in such circumstances, so why would you penalize the baby?
I certainly don't think it's ok, and nor do I think most pro-life people do, but I guess the thing is an incremental strategy, though Roe v Wade makes that hard, and they'd rather not start that harder fight when they already have to fight for other things.
Originally Posted by :
That's not much of a gray area. No one would approve of that.
Plenty here in the US argue for the need to have partial birth abortions on demand, and scream about laws requiring notification of a parent when someone other than a parent takes a minor across state lines for an abortion.That's not much of a gray area. No one would approve of that.
Originally Posted by :
I don't think there are any groups that think that. It's just horrible.
It is, but I fear you are incorrect.I don't think there are any groups that think that. It's just horrible.
Originally Posted by :
And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
And it isn't for the father, who will be forced to care for the child if the mother wants?And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
You seem to think which side of a few inches of flesh a person is on allows murder.
Crazed Rabbit
Originally Posted by :
What child? A child is a young human being, which has been born... No birth, no child :)
But still a human being and alive. This is where the grey matter comes in.What child? A child is a young human being, which has been born... No birth, no child :)
Originally Posted by :
And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
Fatherhood alone changes a man's life profoundly, if not, I fear he is not a man to begin with. If you wish more tangible effects, let's see, 50% of all earnings, possible jail time, all insurance expenses, responsibility for all visitation travel expenses, education costs and thats the norm with many non-custodial fathers and the cases I've seen.And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
On the flip side, being robbed of fatherhood when expecting and desiring it can have an equally detrimental effect on a man.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
I can't think of any reason, as it the situation is so hypothetical that I can't even imagine it.
If she should be refused an abortion if she doesn't have a reason? Nobody takes an abortion without a reason, so that isn't a problem. How "extraordinary" it is, can only be judged by herself. And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
So say a mother is 3 weeks' due and decides to abort her child out of spite because her husband just left her. Would you agree with her decision?I can't think of any reason, as it the situation is so hypothetical that I can't even imagine it.
If she should be refused an abortion if she doesn't have a reason? Nobody takes an abortion without a reason, so that isn't a problem. How "extraordinary" it is, can only be judged by herself. And the decision is hers ALONE, the father doesn't have a say in this IMO, simply because either choice has very, very minor consequences for him, while it is life-changing for the mother.
Human Life = conception to natural death.
Under that rubric, abortion is wrong save in those very rare circumstances where it is a true choice between the life of the baby-to-be and the life of the mother. In that instance, the mother (or her designated trustee) should choose.
Cases of rape and incest are abhorent for any number of reasons, but the unborn has harmed/wronged no one.
Under that rubric, abortion is wrong save in those very rare circumstances where it is a true choice between the life of the baby-to-be and the life of the mother. In that instance, the mother (or her designated trustee) should choose.
Cases of rape and incest are abhorent for any number of reasons, but the unborn has harmed/wronged no one.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Human Life = conception to natural death.
Under that rubric, abortion is wrong save in those very rare circumstances where it is a true choice between the life of the baby-to-be and the life of the mother. In that instance, the mother (or her designated trustee) should choose.
Cases of rape and incest are abhorent for any number of reasons, but the unborn has harmed/wronged no one.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but...Human Life = conception to natural death.
Under that rubric, abortion is wrong save in those very rare circumstances where it is a true choice between the life of the baby-to-be and the life of the mother. In that instance, the mother (or her designated trustee) should choose.
Cases of rape and incest are abhorent for any number of reasons, but the unborn has harmed/wronged no one.
1) I find it hard to see a few weeks old bundled of undifferentiated cells as human, it will probably grow into one assuming it doesn't miscarry, but it isn't really yet, any more than a culture of cells taken from me is a human.
2) On a more practical note, abortion happens anyway. I'd rather have it done cleanly, safely, and be regulated.
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