Princepes with spears?

[Swebozbozboz]

I was just wondering why the Eb team decided to have the princepes wield a spear instead of a gladius? It seems other mods [and the vanilla version] agree they were just a heavier amoured, veteraned, hastati-type infrantry, while this mod sees them without the swords of the hastati. In the EB they are almost a cross between hastati and triarii.

Does the EB team have any super secret evidence the other modders and games designers don't have? Is the spear just a hunch? Did they use both a spear and a sword and so you decided that for a more unique unit the spears were right?

I'm very curious about this. I love the mod and i have a blast no matter which faction i play. Sometimes when I need a break from the loading times i fire up vanilla or another RTW mod, and they just look ridiculous in comparison, and i quickly exit and play EB.

So cheers, and thanks for your time and help.

[CaesarAugustus]

Sometimes when I need a break from the loading times i fire up vanilla or another RTW mod, and they just look ridiculous in comparison, and i quickly exit and play EB.

Haha I knoew what you mean, today I startes a Vanilla RTW campain as Egypt, and I almost fell out of my seat laughing as soon as I saw the charioteers and Egyptain New-Kingdom infantry.

No idea about the Principes though, if it's in EB, then chances are it's historically accurate.

[Intranetusa]

That's a good question - that's what I wanted to know too when I first started playing.

Also, not trying to hijack the topic from the poster, but: Why do almost
80%+ of the foot soldier units have javelins they can throw? I didn't know so many barbarian, egyptian, easter, etc factions threw pillas before charging...

[Watchman]

Also, not trying to hijack the topic from the poster, but: Why do almost
80%+ of the foot soldier units have javelins they can throw? I didn't know so many barbarian, egyptian, easter, etc factions threw pillas before charging...

'Cause it's a simple, cheap and cheerful way to provide foot soldiers in particular with some ranged punch that can be used to inflict casualties and disorder in the enemy ranks before close combat. The tactic actually survived pretty long into the Middle Ages, although Europeans weren't overall that fond of it anymore. Nonetheless period sources often refer to javelin-throwing being regarded as part of the proper training of a good soldier, and even knights practised it; they're also mentioned in use by light cavalry in some fairly late-period battles.

[Intranetusa]

but is it historically accurate to portray so many foot soldiers as having javelins? even the aedui, averni, casse, sweboz, etc factions?

thxs

[CaesarAugustus]

Yes because pretty much every foot soldier in the ancient world used some form of javelin.

[Urnamma]

'Cause it's a simple, cheap and cheerful way to provide foot soldiers in particular with some ranged punch that can be used to inflict casualties and disorder in the enemy ranks before close combat. The tactic actually survived pretty long into the Middle Ages, although Europeans weren't overall that fond of it anymore. Nonetheless period sources often refer to javelin-throwing being regarded as part of the proper training of a good soldier, and even knights practised it; they're also mentioned in use by light cavalry in some fairly late-period battles.

Europeans were fond of it, actually, they just used more primitive missile weapons, like the hurlbat, or heavier throwing spear. They lost the javelin aerodynamic shape or thongs used to give them greater range.

Javelin throwing is a learned skill, and Roman infantry practised it until the 1400s. The problem in Europe is that most soldiers were merely farmers given some rudimentary training ;)

[L.C.Cinna]

That's a good question - that's what I wanted to know too when I first started playing.

Also, not trying to hijack the topic from the poster, but: Why do almost
80%+ of the foot soldier units have javelins they can throw? I didn't know so many barbarian, egyptian, easter, etc factions threw pillas before charging...

Sorry for the double post but several people posted while I wrote my first one and I wanted to quote for this one.


Of course the others don't use pila but various javelins. Spears and Javelins were the main weapons used especially by Germanics. In such areas where metal production was comparably low swords were only used by richer people.

In the eastern parts the light to medium skirmishers like peltastai for example were in use for quite some time already so the throwing spear was not a Roman invention although the Romans themselves thought that troops like thorakitai were copied from them. This is not true of course because the troops in the east developed independently and such types of soldiers appeared already before the Romans came into any major military contact with the east.

[Intranetusa]

k thxs

[NeoSpartan]

I WANNA GET GOOD AT THROWING THE JAVELING!!!!!

[Watchman]

I understand the thing is among the easiest of ranged weapons to learn (one reason to its extreme popularity), so just grab a suitable stick and go practice in your back yard. What are you waiting for, trooper ? Move move move!

In the eastern parts the light to medium skirmishers like peltastai for example were in use for quite some time already so the throwing spear was not a Roman invention although the Romans themselves thought that troops like thorakitai were copied from them. This is not true of course because the troops in the east developed independently and such types of soldiers appeared already before the Romans came into any major military contact with the east.

By what I've read the pilum wasn't a Roman invention either - they picked it up from other mid/northern Italian peoples and refined the concept. Specimen have been excavated from Etruscan contexts, apparently, for one example.

Out East the idea of "precursor" throwing-spears AFAIK go back at least to Late Bronze Age. For more "primitive" peoples it was a very logical developement in any case - just about all of them used javelins for hunting larger game to begin with, so warriors could be expected to both own and be skilled with them; after skirmish use (the easily most logical one, especially for low-organization low-population "primitives) the idea of tossing them at the enemy warband en masse before charging in cannot have been a very demanding leap.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I WANNA GET GOOD AT THROWING THE JAVELING!!!!!

Okay here you go:
grab yourself a stick, make sure the front is relatively heavy compared to the rest of it;
lean over to the side of one of your legs (either left or right depending on what you prefer), so that your other is tensed;
grab your stick, and make sure to use your left hand if you're leaning over on your left leg and use your right hand if it would be your right leg - make sure that the arm is tensed;
make sure that the tip of your stick is on the same height as your nose, and that it's pointing in a 45 degree angle with the ground - keep everything tensed;
quickly move your weight from one of your legs (the right one if your hold your 'javelin' in your right hand) to the other, whilst jumping up a little without actually getting "airborne", and hurl away your javelin - all at the same time.

If you use a proper javelin like you're given for atletics, then you should be able to easily hurl it some 18 metres away or more. After just 1 - 3 rounds of practice that is.

Now time to go for the kill.

[Watchman]

AFAIK the theory goes that the early "Camillian" Princeps used spears (a sort of leftover from the old hoplite army), and the first-line Hastati were the only ones using short swords as their primary melee weapons around that time. Later this changed - probably partially prompted by the adoption of the excellent gladius hispaniensis - which is in EB represented by the "Polybian" reforms and the accompanying changes in the unit roster.

[L.C.Cinna]

Camillan principes have a hasta (spear) in EB. Wait for the Polybian reforms to get the later principes with pila and sword. The Vanilla version of RTW started with Polybian style troops, that's why.

hope this answers your question.