Latest Update on patch 1.2

[BlackAxe3001]

The "issues" thus revealed are that CA are incompetent, uncaring programmers, not to mention game makers.

Nothing but net - you know it's true.

Who do you think you are? Provide some solid fact and quit spewing garbage. If you don't like the game and don't like CA then go away. Everyone here is pretty much an avid total war gamer and really likes CA for the work they do. Ugh...

[sapi]

CA Bashing achieves nothing and will not be tolerated.

Lets keep this on topic.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The analogy with the car industy doesn't work, if the car industry was like the pc gaming industry if you took the car back because of faults and went for another car, they'd all have faults!

Fortunately for consumers cars are subject to certain safety standards as well as consumer standards and a manufactureres warranty. Software games are not required to meet any consumer standards and come with a near useless very limited warranty that more idemnifies the developer than guarranties the game.

Metacritic disagrees with you. When a game can score an 88 out of the box, it's clearly good enough to be released. Sure there's a bunch of stuff that we've all found out are bugs, but as people have pointed out, a great many of them are very difficult to notice when you play the game unless you know exactly what to look for. I think as a result of hunting down all these bugs, we've all drifted a bit toward the negative side of things. We're so focused on what's wrong with the game that we're missing what's right with it! All in all this is a great game even without the much-anticipated fixes of the 1.2 patch, and frankly I'm quite happy that I've had it to play and tinker with for the past few months: it's been undoubtedly far better than most other games that would've filled that time instead.

It doesn't matter what a online/magazine game review scores. Its the end user that ultimately decides its true score.

I've found MTW2 a very bitter and frustrating pill to swallow that falls short of my expectations. Even without the crashes, graphics glitches, mouse/keyboard problems its very difficult not to notice the myriad number of bugs that are present in the game. Not quite gamebreaking but disappointing nevertheless.

Would I have liked to see a more polished product released? Of course - but that doesn't take away from the value of what WAS released. A 3/4 finished work by a master painter is still sublime when compared to a completed work by a novice, especially when the master is already working on finishing it for you.

For a driver, a ferrari without an engine certainly does not have greater value then a running car.

The finish of a product is a reflection of the pride of one has with their work whether novice or pro.

Unbeatable AI, new improved diplomacy, pleased with the finish of the product are words used to promote MTW 2. We were promised a day 1 patch that took a month and a day. Now I am being told that a new patch is in the making with many of the same fixes that were supposed to have been fixed in the first patch but were'nt. They took my money in November 2006 but its now mid march 2007 and still no patch. I have every reason to be angry but most of all I am appalled at the level of customer service I have received.

[Incongruous]

Great post

I think it's funny that, just because they are software company, CA beleive they can treat their customers like an annoyance, great!

[SadCat]

I liked my 1.1 game. I liked even better my 1.1 + Foz fixes game. I hope 1.2 is even better. I got my moneys worth, Hours of fun! I still need to complete the HRI game. SadCat

[Husar]

It's funny how especially the self-proclaimed veterans are mourning because the patch takes so long. This was exactly the same with previous TotalWar games and if it really bothers you so much, why did you buy another Total War game? If they are not worth the money, why did you buy four of them? Why didn't you stop after one or two?
And I actually enjoyed the game a lot before I read about the shield bug and two hander bug here. And yes, I started focusing on them and only then did I start to notice their effects which now make me wait for the patch. I might have never noticed them without reading about them, though a few units did surprise me with their bad performance.

[Lord_hazard]

Oh I cant wait to try out the patch toda...say what? Ah, cabagepatch cakes.
Well lest just hope that its minor flaws and they are easily corrected. Or in other words...I want the patch now waaaaaaah.

[Stuperman]

I worry that this update wil be all cinematic and map editor, and very little bug fixing. Last I read it was suposed to be like 650 Mb too!

[Incongruous]

It's funny how especially the self-proclaimed veterans are mourning because the patch takes so long. This was exactly the same with previous TotalWar games and if it really bothers you so much, why did you buy another Total War game? If they are not worth the money, why did you buy four of them? Why didn't you stop after one or two?
And I actually enjoyed the game a lot before I read about the shield bug and two hander bug here. And yes, I started focusing on them and only then did I start to notice their effects which now make me wait for the patch. I might have never noticed them without reading about them, though a few units did surprise me with their bad performance.

Yesh, its the nawty wawty Vetys fault you can't play Medy Two any more

I suppose, the vets (whom I count myself as having played TW from the start) have a right to be rather annoyed, becasue with the vets, TW would not exist, the vets are the ones whom bought STW even though it was a completley out there idea. The fact that CA seem to be completley disregarding them is a huge slap in the face, one which says much about the collective conscience of the team.

But anyway. If you wish to simply accept the lousy Customer service of CA that is of course, you're choice.

[Ethelred Unread]

Wouldn't bad customer service be if they didn't even attempt to fix the bugs?

If you want to see bad customer service try either a large telecommunications company in the UK, or any mobile phone supplier. Or banks. Thats real "I don't give a monkey's chuff about my customers" levels of service.

[sapi]

[pike master]

CA has done a wonderful job on this game. if it was such a bad game, how come you guys were willing to spend 50 dollars to get it.

they have your money now so they really dont care what you think.the game is completely and wonderfully balanced right out of the box. all they are trying to do now is some small finishing touches.

[Quickening]

CA has done a wonderful job on this game. if it was such a bad game, how come you guys were willing to spend 50 dollars to get it.

they have your money now so they really dont care what you think.the game is completely and wonderfully balanced right out of the box. all they are trying to do now is some small finishing touches.

I agree with your sentiments about it being a wonderful game but I wouldn't describe fixing the "Trinity of Evil Bugs" as "finishing touches".

[Odin]

what continually amazes me is that end users rail against an established PC Game practice. You find me a product that has come out bug free in the last 3 years.

You buy a game at release, your beta testing it for them. Pick any game you want, look at thier forums and you will find a section for user reports on issues.

Of the famous "wishlists" or "bug reporting" threads. This is how the industry has progressed, and its progressed that way mainly because consumer purchase the product as is.

Cavaet emptor, the only way to correct this process is to not purchase the game until it is at the "1.2" fix level, believe me its an economic model that drives this process not a blatant anamosity from a developer.

CA Makes fine games that with some tweeks (shield fix) out of the box you can play, a lot of companies are not like that. Additionally anyone who surmises that CA's intent is to harm the customer with late fixes or lack of testing, again dosent understand the economic model at work here.

I hope 1.2 comes out today, I dont want to wait for it. But look at it this way, modding is a direct result of the short coming of this economic model, and if companies did put out bug free games at the start you wouldnt have half the mods you have.

A silver lining can be found in most anything if one looks hard enough.

[Quickening]

All games are released with bugs, yes. But to varying extents. About a month or two ago I bought Europa Universalis 3. Does that have bugs? Yes, but nothing near the degree of M2TW. Sure M2TW is far from the worst case of a bugged game, but it ain't the best case scenario either.

[Odin]

All games are released with bugs, yes. But to varying extents. About a month or two ago I bought Europa Universalis 3. Does that have bugs? Yes, but nothing near the degree of M2TW. Sure M2TW is far from the worst case of a bugged game, but it ain't the best case scenario either.

Conceded. However i have extensive history with Paradox games and thier forums, and there was a time when you could have gone to thier forums and seen literall 10 thousand (total) posts on bugs for thier games.

Paradox is an example of a company who has improved tremendously, but again go back 2-3 years to the old EUII or HOI and under the guise of "support" they put out multiple patches (sometimes versions a,b,c, just to quick fix a patch they just released).

Again the industry is not dicatated by suits in an office, or spectacle wearing programers in a cubical, its dictated by the consumer. Its a very simple economic model, you release a game that works and your consumer base helps you identify the problems.

Your getting paying customers to test your product, why wouldnt you do that? There is only one piece of this equation that can change the current system and that is the consumer.

[Whacker]

Again the industry is not dicatated by suits in an office, or spectacle wearing programers in a cubical, its dictated by the consumer. Its a very simple economic model, you release a game that works and your consumer base helps you identify the problems.

Correction, it IS dictated by suits in their offices, but based on their perceptions of the consumers (usually as given to them by their marketing drones).

Your getting paying customers to test your product, why wouldnt you do that? There is only one piece of this equation that can change the current system and that is the consumer.

Agree completely, the one thing we can fix is ourselves. Vote with your cash, and don't lower your standards or expectations.

BTW Quickening, I kinda figured you were going to get flamed into oblivion on this one. For the record I agree with your asssessment, this one should have stayed in the oven longer, I've gone on to playing other games until further patches come out.

[Odin]

Correction, it IS dictated by suits in their offices, but based on their perceptions of the consumers (usually as given to them by their marketing drones).

it Is dictated by the consumer. The laws of supply and demand are predicated on consumption as a reality not as an anticipated reality. That reality being prior sales of exsisting like product. Suits might be the ones who present the data but the market force that drives economics has and always will be consumption.

BTW Quickening, I kinda figured you were going to get flamed into oblivion on this one. For the record I agree with your asssessment, this one should have stayed in the oven longer, I've gone on to playing other games until further patches come out.

to bad he is being flamed because in an ideal market situation he is right it should have been "cooked" longer. Sadly quickening (along with the rest of us) are the problem, we bought the game before it met our expectations, that is our fault not CA's

[Quickening]

Sadly quickening (along with the rest of us) are the problem, we bought the game before it met our expectations, that is our fault not CA's

This is the first time I was on this forum for the release of a Total War game. I do love the series but for the next Total War installment, I'll wait and see what the people on the .org have to say about it a month or so after release before buying.

[Odin]

This is the first time I was on this forum for the release of a Total War game. I do love the series but for the next Total War installment, I'll wait and see what the people on the .org have to say about it a month or so after release before buying.

Nothing personal man, but this cant be the 1st game you have had this issue with? This is pretty industry standard mate, pick the game at release its got some issues.

I waited until 1.1 until i bought the game knowing that there were issues, but those issues have been addressed in mods (LTC 2.1). So yeah, watch the boards, do your due diligence as a consumer and know the product you are buying.

[Tyrac]

I have never bought or played any TW game until after the first real patch. I learned this with Shogun. I have however bought ALL the TW games and most of the expansions, because there is nothing that even comes close to this game in terms of enjoyment and time spent in single player games. :)

Now that I am officially a "vet" I know what to expect in terms of release and patches and it shocks me to see people who should have also learned this very simple fact crying like children.

In 2 or 3 years when the next TW rolls out I hope you will have woke up and can restrain yourself and wait to buy it rather then dash out and make the same stupid mistake you made with the last 2 releases.

I also look over the mods and bug fixers and try to pick and use the most basic one, i.e. the one that fixes the most bugs without fixing "personal" things, before I even play the tutorial.



Why don't you do these things too?

Oh and I am very excited about the coming patch!

And for the great bug fixers to follow in its wake!

[Aquitaine]

This is the same discussion that goes on with every game these days (and that went on with MTW and RTW).

- Where's the patch
- It'll be here when it's here
- This game sucks without a patch!
- Why you'd buy it, foo
- I'm never buying another CA game until the next one!
- CA Developers exist to spite me personally

...and so on.

Not relevant and not productive (which this post is just as guilty of for commenting on it). Can we move on?

[Quickening]

Nothing personal man, but this cant be the 1st game you have had this issue with?

No. Ive been playing PC games since 1993 and this is certainly not the first game Ive had an issue with. However, I can't recall an issue with a game that bothered me so much.
I don't know about MTW and RTW because I only began really playing them after all the patches had been released (not intentionally, just turned out that way).

Perhaps it is just the kind of game this is that makes the issues such an irritant for me. I can put up with weird clipping bugs in FPSs. I can put up with the odd balancing issue in your standard RTS. But a game like Total War is built on it's battles and for me at least, things like the shield bug and two-handed bug really grate because they cause deep problems. I don't care about weird diplomacy, out of place sound effects or dodgy terrain etc so much. I do care about battle mechanics in a game based on battles.

Like I said this is the first Total War game where I have been active on these forums for release. I remember someone here saying "the next time a Total War game is released I will be ripping the modem out of the wall" because of the amount of complaining about the game. At the time I agreed with his sentiment and I still do to a degree. I hate seeing new topics like "this game is broken!111!!!!!11". But after three months I want the game fixed.

Someone earlier raised the issue of the game getting such high scores in reviews. I read PC Gamer UK which gave the game 94%. But as also pointed out, most of the bugs were not discovered until after a month or two. There was no chance that reviewers were going to notice them on their schedule. Would the game have scored less had they been aware of them? Absolutely, Id say.
Although I write game reviews for another forum (it's nothing serious, just for fun) and interestingly, I won't be letting the bugs influence it. Because the fact remains that even now, M2TW is immensely enjoyable to play (for me at least) and has massive potential.

This could be debated forever so just to sum up my point of view. M2TW is a fantastic game. It's my favourite in the Total War series and my favourite strategy game over all. There is nothing like it. But no way should specific bugs such as the shield bug, two-handed bug and passive AI have escaped notice before release. But I do love the work CA has done and am very, very eager/impatient to play the game as was intended.

[Husar]

I just read that 3DRealms wanted to make the perfect game and call it "Duke Nukem Forever" and now we all know what happens with perfect games.

The interview can be found here, I just read a summary on another site which is german though.

[Whacker]

I based my decision to buy M2TW on my enjoyment of the series, and the experiences with the games in the past, most notably RTW. Sure RTW had bugs, but my experience was that it wasn't nearly as bad as M2TW was/is at launch. Lesson learned, I will be waiting on the next TW titles.

There are other games that I haven't bought due to developer stupidity and arrogance/fascist copy protection/dumbed down product but it does take a bit of willpower to do this. For example, everything on this list: http://www.glop.org/starforce/list.php is on my blacklist.

[TinCow]

M2TW has more bugs than RTW. Look at the buglist to convince yourself.
My bugs found list for RTW was much shorther than that.

Then you didn't find most of the RTW bugs. There were many, many very serious ones. M2TW has a few of serious ones as well, but most of those can be fixed even before the patch with tweaking. That was not the case with RTW. Surely you remember such things as suicidal generals, units getting stuck in siege towers, mass drownings on bridge battles, units getting stuck in testudo formation, protectorates draining your treasury dry, passive AI in city squares, ridiculous squalor, inability to upgrade bodyguards, AI tendency to use tons of tiny fleets, no command stars for admirals...

I've looked at the buglists and I've convinced myself. RTW was far worse on release.

[Nelson]

This is the same discussion that goes on with every game these days (and that went on with MTW and RTW).

- Where's the patch
- It'll be here when it's here
- This game sucks without a patch!
- Why you'd buy it, foo
- I'm never buying another CA game until the next one!
- CA Developers exist to spite me personally

...and so on.

Not relevant and not productive (which this post is just as guilty of for commenting on it). Can we move on?

What Aquitaine said. We had better move on.

Let’s limit our discussion to 1.2 related features or concrete news about a release, shall we?

[whodat]

My, what an interesting series of replies and comments.

First of all, just checked the update thread on totalwar.com, no further comments from CA/Sega since the notice regarding they were fixing a new bug they found. Like I said originally, I would expect to see it sometime next week now, unless the bug they found is causing a major rewrite of codes. I am sure when they know something, they will keep us informed as to a new patch release date.

Now, I have to throw in my 2 cents. MTW2 has the potential of being a great game, but isn't there yet. It is not unplayable in it's current state, just annoying in that after I fell in love with MTW, I anticipated even more fun with MTW2. IF, and I repeat If, the major combat bugs are fixed and characters can perform as advertised, then this game stay on my shelf for a long time.

But this game's CD is not coffee coaster material. Compared to other games and sequels that came out with HUGE hype and were major disappointments (can I mention Master of Orion III and Temple of Elemental Evil - want to talk about unplayable out of the box?) this game is heads above that category.

I bought into the industry review hype and got all excited to play MTW2. I should have remembered that reviewers; don't have much time to review in depth if they are going to publish anywhere close to the game launch; will often take a KNOWN AND PROVEN publisher's info on the game at face value; seem to value eye candy too highly; often don't dive deeply into the mechanics; and rarely play a game out to the end. You can get far better reviews from a game's forum within 2 weeks of it's launch.

I have been playing computer games since I got my first Apple IIE, and was playing strategic board games for years before that. Believe me, I have seen games come out that were such dogs that there should have been a flea collar in the game box. MTW2 ain't one of them. Yeah, it would be nice to get a game that is so perfect on launch it never needs a patch. It would also be nice to have peace on earth, end world hunger, a car in every garage, and hit the lottery every week. So have a little more patience and let's all send positive vibes so the programmers get it right with this patch.

[TinCow]

Ok, back on topic. I do have a question about the patch fix list. The list includes the following AI fixes:

• AI does not deploy outside of enemy gates.
• Siege AI is not passive.
• AI now effectively assaults 2nd tier of a Fortress.
• Attacking Siege AI concentrates on taking the settlement rather than chasing down units outside the settlement.
• Enemy AI reacts to being bombarded with Trebuchets while inside a settlement.
• Siege AI now more difficult to defeat if player places missile units outside the walls.
• AI controls it units more effectively in a Citadel
• Remaining AI army now advances to use siege equipment
• AI now responds to missiles when sieging settlements
• AI responds more quickly to gates that have been opened by Spies (while sieging).
• Enemy AI effectively attacks when player's units in a settlement square
• Enemy AI now utilises spare rams

I cannot tell from this whether the bolded fixes refer to attacking or defending AI. "Siege AI" seems to read like the AI that controls attacking a player-held settlement. But if that's the case, why do they call it simply "AI" and "Enemy AI" in the italicized fixes? Essentially what I want to know is... does the passive AI fix apply to attacking, defending, or both?

[Sarsfield]

Hi folks,

first post and all. Sorry if it oversteps the mark but the debate on here has induced me to post. (I throw myself on the mods' mercy m'Lud...)

I've been playing TW games since 2003 and may I say, I've enjoyed then all (including the current one) immensely and I hope that CA keep on making games of this type for some time to come as it is not hyperbole to say that they have raised the bar for strategy games in a very real way. I have no vested interest in criticising them and the issues I relate here have application for many other games and publishers/developers.

Right, disclaimer inserted I shall proceed. That M2TW was released in essentially an unfinished state is shocking but given the industry context, hardly surprising (anyone who's played FarCry will know what I mean...). It's all about getting the product to market and because there has yet to be any sort of proper legal test case on this issue developers and publishers know that we consumers haven't a leg to stand on. They have our money, we've bought the product and now we are relying on their good faith to sort out the problems. May I say that I have no doubt that CA and Sega genuinely want to fix the game, I would imagine they are as passionate about the series as we are but the fact remains that they'll take their time, there is no imperative to sort it out, the vast majority of us will not only continue playing but will buy the next iteration unquestioningly.

In part, this is our own fault. If we as consumers sent out the message that we will not accept unfinished games by not buying them until they are properly patched then pub/devs would get the message quick smart. I've done that with M2TW, I whiled away the last few months playing Company of Heroes and Anno 1701 because I played M2TW at Christmas and found it too annoying for sustained play. I rather thought that there would have been a second patch by now but then, anybody who remembers the fiasco of the RTW 1.2 patch would no doubt smile wryly. At the moment, the wise move appears to be; give a game six months before buying (it's cheaper that way too!).

On the developer side there is a very obvious solution too: mass public betas. You don't need to look far here to find enthusiastic, technically proficient fans willing to help out in their droves. The issues that plague the game we all love could have been expunged for very little cost and far more comprehensively than with the more traditional testing model. It's win/win. Maybe I'm missing something here so if I'm being myopic or naive, please let me know!

To finish off, a little anecdote. I was playing as the Sacsanaigh against the Scots, there was a battle on the slopes down to the North Sea outside York. The weather was a typical North of England summer day - i.e. p***ing it down. I deployed my troops and pressed the battle button. I immediately pressed pause though and spent about ten minutes gawping at how Goddamn beautiful a vista CA had conjured up with a series of 1s and 0s. It was truly breath-taking. Then the charge bug kicked in.... I don't want this series to go the same way as the Aftermath, Aftershock, Afterlight series (I've stopped buying) because of silly bugs and dumb copy protection issues (one word: Starforce).

Games should ship in working order, no ifs buts or maybes. I don't care how much I like CA's work, buggy is buggy and it's not acceptable. If it's not ready, don't release. As a fan, I'm sympathetic to a delayed release date but I'm deeply annoyed by release day patches and late patches. Do it right, first time. It's the standard for every other producer of goods and services and it's about time the software industry towed the line. Ultimately though, the only thing that'll make them behave is out collective wallet...