Military Intelligence

[KafirChobee]

In my day in the military "MI" was an oxymoron, left over from the Korean conflict and WWII ("the Germans are beaten, and then they attack - ref. "Battle of the Bulge"). But, atleast in Korea (by 1967) there were spies that did give real intelligence - to both sides.

Regardless, from May 67' on the loud speakers on the DMZ from the North began a repetition of "When snow comes Joe comes" (Joe is what we called the commies). Now for those of us that spent time on the D, we pretty much believed them. MI called it psychological warfare - which it was, and it was working (2-5% of infantry personel hid in the ville rather than go to the line, of course most ended up there within a few days - but, it was worth the try). So, the top guys ignored it, 'til ROK (Prez Park) MI said maybe.

In May 67' a quancit hut of 13th Engineers was blown up - killing 7-10 and 15 wounding more. In July a fire fight between 1/17th, 7th MP and guerillas ended with them finding a cashe of rockets, mortars, etc - all above Camp Casey. In Nov. a troop picking up wood was ambushed near the DMZ - 3 purple hearts, one Btonze star. In early Dec. a patrol of the 1/31 (or was it 32nd?) was ambushed and killed - except for a 17 y.o. kid that played dead while one of the Joes cut up his finger to get his ring (think about it - meh).
By then there had been over a thousand "incidents". (btw a ROK cruiser was sunk some time during that time line ... or was it earlier?)

Well, someone decided that maybe it might be a good idea to increase the number of GI's on the ROK - so to the chagrin of those derosing versus terminating service - everyone stays. The US ROK army went from 60K (30K today) to 100,000 in a matter of weeks.

In January 68', Tet went off with a major bang. In Korea, the Pueblo was stolen - because we had absolutely zero air support. So, did the increase in troops deter an invasion? Or, was it a diversion to turn our MI away from 'nam?

Thing is, Military Intelligence is still an oxymoron. Only now we think spys in the sky are.

[Vladimir]

Clearly you've never met a Marine MI.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Thing is, Military Intelligence is still an oxymoron. Only now we think spys in the sky are.

I'm not at all sure what your point is? Would you prefer being in warfare without any military intelligence?

Intelligence often gets it in the neck, but all they can do is gather information. It is politicians and senior commanders that interpret that intelligence.

The worst situation to have is where intelligencers are trying to second guess what is wanted, because they have been politicised and its more than their job's worth to dissent.

That's actually worse than having no intelligence at all. In both meanings of the word.

[Redleg]

Sound Military Intelligence lead the collation to defeat Saddam in 1990 during Desert Storm. Poor intelligence gathering allowed for mistakes to happen in the initial phases of the recent conflict.

Now bad military intelligence has done harm to our forces, but that does not equate that military intelligence is something to be avoided.

In other words Kafir, I am not really sure of the point that you are attempting to make.

Unless its this bad military intelligence leads to problems that should/could of been prevented. The piece that is missing is that its often the human being attempting to analysis the data that makes the mistake, not the system itself.

Information has to be gathered and analysised to help protect the force, can it be wrong, or the wrong conclusions made - yes, but it still needs to be done.

[Bijo]

In my day in the military "MI" was an oxymoron, left over from the Korean conflict and WWII ("the Germans are beaten, and then they attack - ref. "Battle of the Bulge"). But, atleast in Korea (by 1967) there were spies that did give real intelligence - to both sides.

Regardless, from May 67' on the loud speakers on the DMZ from the North began a repetition of "When snow comes Joe comes" (Joe is what we called the commies). Now for those of us that spent time on the D, we pretty much believed them. MI called it psychological warfare - which it was, and it was working (2-5% of infantry personel hid in the ville rather than go to the line, of course most ended up there within a few days - but, it was worth the try). So, the top guys ignored it, 'til ROK (Prez Park) MI said maybe.

In May 67' a quancit hut of 13th Engineers was blown up - killing 7-10 and 15 wounding more. In July a fire fight between 1/17th, 7th MP and guerillas ended with them finding a cashe of rockets, mortars, etc - all above Camp Casey. In Nov. a troop picking up wood was ambushed near the DMZ - 3 purple hearts, one Btonze star. In early Dec. a patrol of the 1/31 (or was it 32nd?) was ambushed and killed - except for a 17 y.o. kid that played dead while one of the Joes cut up his finger to get his ring (think about it - meh).
By then there had been over a thousand "incidents". (btw a ROK cruiser was sunk some time during that time line ... or was it earlier?)

Well, someone decided that maybe it might be a good idea to increase the number of GI's on the ROK - so to the chagrin of those derosing versus terminating service - everyone stays. The US ROK army went from 60K (30K today) to 100,000 in a matter of weeks.

In January 68', Tet went off with a major bang. In Korea, the Pueblo was stolen - because we had absolutely zero air support. So, did the increase in troops deter an invasion? Or, was it a diversion to turn our MI away from 'nam?

Thing is, Military Intelligence is still an oxymoron. Only now we think spys in the sky are.

Kafir, I still don't get your point Maybe it's because you use many abbreviations that confuse me, and words I don't know like Pueblo. What is ROK? Where is Camp Casey? And what is... I mean... like... where's the... I mean....!

[Husar]

Kafir, I still don't get your point Maybe it's because you use many abbreviations that confuse me, and words I don't know like Pueblo. What is ROK? Where is Camp Casey? And what is... I mean... like... where's the... I mean....!

I had a very similar problem, I think one needs to have served in some(the US?) military to understand what he wrote.

[Crazed Rabbit]

He's talking about the Republic of Korea and De-Militarized Zone (the real oxymoron here) and I don't quite get the point of his rant. Seems just to be grousing about military intelligence failures of 40 years ago, or something.

Crazed Rabbit

[Vladimir]

I had a very similar problem, I think one needs to have served in some(the US?) military to understand what he wrote.

One needs to serve some time on the pipe as well.

[Tribesman]

LOL your stuck on attempting to one-up manship.

In that case repost the information which you deleted since the reply was a response to that post

[Redleg]

In that case repost the information which you deleted since the reply was a response to that post

You should of noticed the edit and the comment of NM. Your comment would still be incorrect in regards to that post also. The United States talked about spying not the coastal limits of terroritial waters.

Again your stuck on one upmanship has steered you wrong, I find it rather amusing.

[Redleg]

Kafir, I still don't get your point Maybe it's because you use many abbreviations that confuse me, and words I don't know like Pueblo. What is ROK? Where is Camp Casey? And what is... I mean... like... where's the... I mean....!

The USS Pueblo was a ship seized by North Korea, North Korea accused the United States of spying using this ship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)

Camp Casey is the forward base of the United States Army, 2nd Infantry Division in South Korea. During the 1960-1970's it was the hub of United States Army activity to the posts that the United States was responsible for on the DMZ. Sometime in the late 1980's the United States removed all personal from active patrols and guard posts along the DMZ and turned the responsiblity over to the South Korean Army.

[Tribesman]

The USS Pueblo was a ship seized by North Korea, North Korea accused the United States of spying using this ship.

or more accrately the North Koreans accused the US ship of spying while inside its territorial waters .

[Redleg]

Nm -

[Tribesman]

Neither side came to agreement about that particuler subject.

They did , and they apologised for it to get the crew back .
Its funny isn't it , when the Pueblo was attacked the US said it only recognises the 12 mile limit not the 50 miles that N.Korea claims so since it was boarded 15 miles out it must be in international waters .
Yet when the Maddox was 8 miles out the US says it only recognises the 3 mile limit not the 12 miles that N.Vietnam claims , so it must be in international waters .
Wierd thing these territorial waters , as the Royal Navy found out yet again .