Ex-Communication: Can anyone explain how it works?

**Didz** · 03-23-2007, 15:28

I'm confused.

Several turns ago my Venetian Army captured Milan, as expected I got a yellow card from the Pope and sat back to wait for it to expire before continuing with an attack on Genoa.

However, the Milanese Army completely ignored the Yellow Card and besieged Milan with a huge army. I fought it off and fully expected to see the Milanese get the Red Card from the pope for their hostile act, in fact I even thought I might get a Red Card too just for fighting back.

In fact nothing seemed to happen and the Milanese Army merely fell back to Genoa replenished its losses and came at me again. I fought it off again with the same lack of action from the pope.

Finally, the Yellow Card expired and I launch my attack on Genoa, deciding first of all to take out the massive army that Milan had camped outside the city. Having defeated that army and driven its survivors back inside the city walls, I then advance on the city and put it under siege.

My army had just finished constructing its siege towers and ladders when a messenger from the pope arrived with yet another Yellow Card telling me to hold fire for the next seven turns.

Now bearing in mind that the Milanese Army had continued to prosecute an active siege twice during the last Yellow Card period I assumed that as I had already started the siege of Genoa, finishing it was not a hostile act in the popes eyes. So, I scaled the walls and finished the job.

With Genoa now in my hands I ended the turn expecting to be given a Red Card, but nothing appeared in the list of notes and so I thought I had got away with it, until I went to adjust Genoa’s tax rate and noticed all the broken crosses.

So, I’m confused now. What is the difference between Milan besieging Milan and Venice besieging Genoa which would cause the Pope to ignore one and punish the other.

**TinCow** · 03-23-2007, 15:53

A ceasefire order from the Pope is not a two-way order. He can order one side in a war to stop fighting without issuing the same order to the other side. This often happens if one side has a higher Papal standing than the other. The better your standing, the more tolerant he will be of your actions. The lower your standing, the faster he'll slap you with the yellow card (love the choice of term, btw).

In your case, I suspect that your Papal standing was lower than Milan's. So, you go the yellow card due to attacking them, while the were given a free hand against you. Do you remember what both standings were at?

**_Tristan_** · 03-23-2007, 16:02

I'm with Ticow here...

Milan has generally a rather good standing with the Papacy (lots of cash in its coffers... and the Pope has always his hand out for more)...

So it must be a case of whose got the biggest one .....(standing I mean, what did you think, you pervert

)

Re-reading the above I didn't mean the biggest one standing

but the biggest standing with the Pope short and simple...

Milan may have been cashing in to the Pope while attacking you but did you when it was your turn if not you can be sure that's why you got excommed...

What surprises me most is the fact that you didn't get a note from the Pope saying you've been excommed... where was your Pop-o-meter at after the battle ?

**Quickening** · 03-23-2007, 16:05

I got excommunicated in my most recent game as England. I then spent lots of money raising the Pope's opinion of me to full but he still did not accept me back into the flock. It was then I discovered that you can actually request, through a diplomat, to be forgiven

He accepted of course.

**Didz** · 03-23-2007, 17:12

@Tincow: Good point…to be honest I had completely forgotten about the Pope-o-Meter. However, the good news is that because I was so dubious about the Popes reaction to things I made a series of saved games so I can confirm exactly what the Pope-O-Meter was reading at various points.

1116 AD Summer Pope-o-Meter Venice 6/10 Milan 6/10

There are still 2 turns to go on the Yellow Card issued by the Pope following my successful assault on Milan. Nevertheless, a Milanese Army is currently besieging the city and this saved game was made because I was about to launch a sally to drive them off, and wasn’t sure if the Pope would give me a Red Card. In fact, I didn't get a Red Card though I notice that my Papal standing dropped by 1 at some point after this event.

1120 AD Summer Pope-o-Meter Venice 5/10 Milan 6/10

The Yellow Card has expired and I am just about to commence my attack on Genoa. Since 1116 AD I have complied with a Papal demand to send a Crusade to Jerusalem which should have got me a few brownie points but for some reason my standing has dropped slightly, whilst Milan's has remained at 6 despite its attack on my city.

1122 AD Winter Pope-o-Meter Venice 5/10 Milan 6/10

My army is besieging Genoa and is ready to assault the walls but a Papal Yellow Card has just been delivered telling me cease hostilities for 7 turns. It would take 5 turns for Genoa to surrender without a fight but there is a huge Milanese Army hovering between Milan and Genoa which could either attack my besieging force or walk into Milan so I don’t really have the option of starving Genoa into submission, even if the Pope would allow it.

I decided to risk assaulting the walls and got a Red Card for doing so.

Conclusion
I’m still confused. Whilst Milan’s Papal standing is slightly higher than mine its not that much higher and personally I don’t understand why mine dropped after defending myself against Milan’s aggression and raising an army for the Popes crusade whilst Milan’s has remained static.

Once again I think more transparency is needed as I would like to know just how much my actions and the enemies are influencing or likely to influence the Pope.

So, far his Holiness has gratefully accept two provinces from me as gifts and has had a crusading army raised by me in his name and yet my Papal standing is less than Milan’s, who so far as I am aware haven’t even sent the Pope a bunch of flowers.

BTW: The Pope is Gregory of the Papal States, no idea if that makes any difference.

**TinCow** · 03-23-2007, 17:57

First off, I don't think your participation in the Crusade helped. I don't have access to the game atm, so I can't check, but I think orders to join Crusades only have a penally for non-compliance, not a bonus for complying. So, by sending a Crusade army, you simply maintained your pope-o-meter level which would have otherwise dropped.

In general, it appears to me that the Pope simply sided with Milan in your war and gave them a free hand to do whatever they wanted, while giving you the warnings. Since you both appear to have had the same pope-o-meter level in the beginning, my guess is that you committed the first hostile act. In my experience, when two factions that the Pope likes go to war, the aggressor is usually the one that gets the warning. The aggressor doesn't necessarily even have to be the one who started the war though. If the war started because Milan sent an assassin at you that got caught, you could still be considered the aggressor if you did the first actual military attack. In addition, the Pope also seems to intervene more often when one side is really beating down the other. Even if you're NOT the aggressor, you'll often get a yellow card if your counterattack has taken a large number of your enemy's provinces.

Are any of these situations true in your case? Who started the war? Who made the first military attack? Were you totally rolling over the Milanese?

Also, the best way to keep the Pope happy is tribute. If you can afford it, 1000 per turn for 10 turns will make you a saint in his eyes. Even 100 per turn will have a noticeable effect. If you're trying to get in his good book, you should slip him some silver.

**Quillan** · 03-23-2007, 15:59

Personally, I've never been excommunicated. In part, it's based on your papal standing. The Pope is a bit more lenient to the faction that's got the highest pope-o-meter rating. Sometimes violating a Papal cease-fire order only results in a loss of papal standing. It sounds like that's what happened to Milan. If you're getting papal warnings, you pretty much have to do the conquering in a single turn. Either bring along artillery or saturate the city with spies to open the gates, then you can smash the field army and take the city on the same turn; this way when the Pope tells you to cease and desist, it's already too late.