Ex-Communication: Can anyone explain how it works?

[Didz]

I'm confused.

Several turns ago my Venetian Army captured Milan, as expected I got a yellow card from the Pope and sat back to wait for it to expire before continuing with an attack on Genoa.

However, the Milanese Army completely ignored the Yellow Card and besieged Milan with a huge army. I fought it off and fully expected to see the Milanese get the Red Card from the pope for their hostile act, in fact I even thought I might get a Red Card too just for fighting back.

In fact nothing seemed to happen and the Milanese Army merely fell back to Genoa replenished its losses and came at me again. I fought it off again with the same lack of action from the pope.

Finally, the Yellow Card expired and I launch my attack on Genoa, deciding first of all to take out the massive army that Milan had camped outside the city. Having defeated that army and driven its survivors back inside the city walls, I then advance on the city and put it under siege.

My army had just finished constructing its siege towers and ladders when a messenger from the pope arrived with yet another Yellow Card telling me to hold fire for the next seven turns.

Now bearing in mind that the Milanese Army had continued to prosecute an active siege twice during the last Yellow Card period I assumed that as I had already started the siege of Genoa, finishing it was not a hostile act in the popes eyes. So, I scaled the walls and finished the job.

With Genoa now in my hands I ended the turn expecting to be given a Red Card, but nothing appeared in the list of notes and so I thought I had got away with it, until I went to adjust Genoa’s tax rate and noticed all the broken crosses.

So, I’m confused now. What is the difference between Milan besieging Milan and Venice besieging Genoa which would cause the Pope to ignore one and punish the other.

[TinCow]

A ceasefire order from the Pope is not a two-way order. He can order one side in a war to stop fighting without issuing the same order to the other side. This often happens if one side has a higher Papal standing than the other. The better your standing, the more tolerant he will be of your actions. The lower your standing, the faster he'll slap you with the yellow card (love the choice of term, btw).

In your case, I suspect that your Papal standing was lower than Milan's. So, you go the yellow card due to attacking them, while the were given a free hand against you. Do you remember what both standings were at?

[Quillan]

Personally, I've never been excommunicated. In part, it's based on your papal standing. The Pope is a bit more lenient to the faction that's got the highest pope-o-meter rating. Sometimes violating a Papal cease-fire order only results in a loss of papal standing. It sounds like that's what happened to Milan. If you're getting papal warnings, you pretty much have to do the conquering in a single turn. Either bring along artillery or saturate the city with spies to open the gates, then you can smash the field army and take the city on the same turn; this way when the Pope tells you to cease and desist, it's already too late.

[_Tristan_]

I'm with Ticow here...

Milan has generally a rather good standing with the Papacy (lots of cash in its coffers... and the Pope has always his hand out for more)...

So it must be a case of whose got the biggest one .....(standing I mean, what did you think, you pervert )

Re-reading the above I didn't mean the biggest one standing but the biggest standing with the Pope short and simple...

Milan may have been cashing in to the Pope while attacking you but did you when it was your turn if not you can be sure that's why you got excommed...

What surprises me most is the fact that you didn't get a note from the Pope saying you've been excommed... where was your Pop-o-meter at after the battle ?

[Quickening]

I got excommunicated in my most recent game as England. I then spent lots of money raising the Pope's opinion of me to full but he still did not accept me back into the flock. It was then I discovered that you can actually request, through a diplomat, to be forgiven

He accepted of course.

[Didz]

@Tincow: Good point…to be honest I had completely forgotten about the Pope-o-Meter. However, the good news is that because I was so dubious about the Popes reaction to things I made a series of saved games so I can confirm exactly what the Pope-O-Meter was reading at various points.

1116 AD Summer Pope-o-Meter Venice 6/10 Milan 6/10

There are still 2 turns to go on the Yellow Card issued by the Pope following my successful assault on Milan. Nevertheless, a Milanese Army is currently besieging the city and this saved game was made because I was about to launch a sally to drive them off, and wasn’t sure if the Pope would give me a Red Card. In fact, I didn't get a Red Card though I notice that my Papal standing dropped by 1 at some point after this event.

1120 AD Summer Pope-o-Meter Venice 5/10 Milan 6/10

The Yellow Card has expired and I am just about to commence my attack on Genoa. Since 1116 AD I have complied with a Papal demand to send a Crusade to Jerusalem which should have got me a few brownie points but for some reason my standing has dropped slightly, whilst Milan's has remained at 6 despite its attack on my city.

1122 AD Winter Pope-o-Meter Venice 5/10 Milan 6/10

My army is besieging Genoa and is ready to assault the walls but a Papal Yellow Card has just been delivered telling me cease hostilities for 7 turns. It would take 5 turns for Genoa to surrender without a fight but there is a huge Milanese Army hovering between Milan and Genoa which could either attack my besieging force or walk into Milan so I don’t really have the option of starving Genoa into submission, even if the Pope would allow it.

I decided to risk assaulting the walls and got a Red Card for doing so.

Conclusion
I’m still confused. Whilst Milan’s Papal standing is slightly higher than mine its not that much higher and personally I don’t understand why mine dropped after defending myself against Milan’s aggression and raising an army for the Popes crusade whilst Milan’s has remained static.

Once again I think more transparency is needed as I would like to know just how much my actions and the enemies are influencing or likely to influence the Pope.

So, far his Holiness has gratefully accept two provinces from me as gifts and has had a crusading army raised by me in his name and yet my Papal standing is less than Milan’s, who so far as I am aware haven’t even sent the Pope a bunch of flowers.

BTW: The Pope is Gregory of the Papal States, no idea if that makes any difference.

[TinCow]

First off, I don't think your participation in the Crusade helped. I don't have access to the game atm, so I can't check, but I think orders to join Crusades only have a penally for non-compliance, not a bonus for complying. So, by sending a Crusade army, you simply maintained your pope-o-meter level which would have otherwise dropped.

In general, it appears to me that the Pope simply sided with Milan in your war and gave them a free hand to do whatever they wanted, while giving you the warnings. Since you both appear to have had the same pope-o-meter level in the beginning, my guess is that you committed the first hostile act. In my experience, when two factions that the Pope likes go to war, the aggressor is usually the one that gets the warning. The aggressor doesn't necessarily even have to be the one who started the war though. If the war started because Milan sent an assassin at you that got caught, you could still be considered the aggressor if you did the first actual military attack. In addition, the Pope also seems to intervene more often when one side is really beating down the other. Even if you're NOT the aggressor, you'll often get a yellow card if your counterattack has taken a large number of your enemy's provinces.

Are any of these situations true in your case? Who started the war? Who made the first military attack? Were you totally rolling over the Milanese?

Also, the best way to keep the Pope happy is tribute. If you can afford it, 1000 per turn for 10 turns will make you a saint in his eyes. Even 100 per turn will have a noticeable effect. If you're trying to get in his good book, you should slip him some silver.

[_Tristan_]

I support Tincow here in his conclusions...

From my experience participating in a crusade or not has no incidence on your staus with the Pope up until the time the Crusade ends, be you the conquering hero or not... Unless you've been asked personnally to take part in it (which happened to my king)...

Indeed you also have to consider who made the first "real" act of war (sending an army on a enemy stack or city/fortress), that's what will matter to the Pope.

moreover, you have to take into account the alliances/lack of such the Pope has with you or the AI faction...

One thing you can never take into account is (regrettably) the amount of cash (if any) the AI pumps into the Pope.

[vonsch]

In answer to a supplemental question, if you have enemy armies on your land (enemy meaning you are already at war with them) it appears safe to chase them off. The Pope lets you defend yourself. Attacking them on their own turf is a no-no. I have never observed a drop in relations with the Pope for doing so. On the other hand, naval attacks count as attacking the enemy on HIS turf.

You've already gotten the advice to play the Pope-o-meter slots. I usually race my starting dip or pricness to Rome, set up a slush fund, and then I get a fairly free hand. Keep an eye on the meter. If it's below 9, hold off agressive acts into lands not yours. 10 is close to completely safe. 9 is mostly safe. Below that the odds rise, but relative standing is still important, so watch the meter for both yourself and your enemy.

I usually start with 100 for 20 turns. Early, as early as I can get over there, that's plenty. Later, the amount required goes up. If I live farther away, I sometimes set up a longer fund to keep something going in case it's hard to get back. Once I can, I park a dip in Italy. I never bother giving the Pope land. It just makes him aggressive. He's already a pain in the meter.

[Didz]

Well I must admit that I did the dirty deed that started the war, by launching a completely unprovoked attack on the city of Milan at a time when I was actually allied with the Milanese.

But, I am surprised to hear that the AI is sophisticated enough to hold a grudge against the faction that it considers to be the guilty party, not that it would have made much difference to me at the time.

Anyway, I decided to see what would happen if I didn’t launch an assault on the walls of Genoa. I was curious whether the Pope would give me the Red Card just for standing around and starving the place into submission.

Unfortunately, the test didn’t work because as predicted that large Milanese army I told you about descended on my besieging force causing the garrison of the city to sally forth and join the battle.

I decided to play the battle out and see what the Pope had to say afterwards, and phew! what an epic battle it turned out to be.

I deployed my Italian militia spearmen in a two deep line along the crest of the highest hill I could find, placed my peasant archers in a line between them and told them to hold their ground and keep firing. I then deployed my three mercenary crossbow units in front of the entire formation in open order and my cavalry to the rear. This is more or less my standard formation for enemy armies that are heavy in cavalry, and in this case there were no less than four enemy generals and their bodyguards to deal with.

The battle opened with the Milanese infantry in three densely packed lines marching up the slope into a hail of arrows and crossbow blots leaving the slope behind them carpeted in their dead.

They kept coming unit they were at about half-bow shot and then stalled and just stood there and died under a hail of missile fire. Several units broke and ran and within a few minutes Milanese casualties were netting 44% compared to my 1%.

Finally, the AI decided that this was just stupid and one of the Generals who had been deployed at the rear decided to spur forward and charge my formation. As his bodyguard pushed its way forward and through its own long suffering infantry line it became the focus of every crossbow and archer on the hill and heavily armoured knights began to drop like flies.

Nevertheless it kept coming and even paused to order ranks giving me time to retire my crossbowmen through my infantry before the 10 or so survivors hurled themselves into one of my front/centre spear units burying themselves deep into it. I must have lost at least 30 men instantly in that charge but the line held and within minutes half the remaining cavalry were dead and the rest running for their lives.

The gesture by these horsemen finally seemed to kick the AI into action and the remaining 3 Generals plus the surviving infantry all rushed up the slope and threw themselves into my battle line. An epic struggle followed with the centre of my front line practically ceasing to exist. I was forced to withdraw my archers to the rear of the second line and order spearmen from that line to move forward and plug the gaps.

By now there was a steady stream of routing Milanese infantry heading for safety and my cavalry were ordered to expedite their departure. Now my uncommitted spear units from the second line and those from the first that were no longer in action swung round on the surviving Generals. Duke Cristoforo the enemy king was killed as was his son and with that the entire enemy army broke and fled being chased down and slaughtered all the way to the red line. Their last general was captured trying to escape and executed along with his men when the Milanese refused to pay the ransom of nearly 6,000 florin's.

Altogether the Milanese lost 2,097 killed and 666 captured including their last family member. I lost 797 killed.

After the Battle Pope-o-Meter Venice 5/10 Milan (No longer exists)

“The Pope is no longer concerned with the fate of Milan.”

Councillor Bartolomeo is now a 5 star general and is to be referred to as ‘Bartolomeo the Saint’.

Plus, I just walked into Genoa and collected nearly 6,000 florins in loot.

Not what I expected to happen but whose complaining.

[supadodo]

To summarize things:

1: Sallying battles will not get you a warning or excomm if you already are warned but if you use an army to attack the besiegers then its a hostility. SO its very important to stock your vulnerable cities full of cheap militia and some trebs.

2. If you want to take a city from another catholic faction, do it in 1 turn or you will get a warning the next turn and if you insist on sticking around the turn you get warned, its excom 4 u.

3. You get a 1 drop on the pope-o-meter for every catholic army you attack which is not on your land(not sure about this one).
You get a +1 to your meter for participating in a successful crusade or successful pope missions

4.Pope-o-meter is directly related to diplomatic relations with the papal states. So you can raise it just by sending a diplomat to Rome and doing all sorts of what-not with the guy in the egg hat.(give cash)

5. True as what others said, the higher your relations, the more stuff you can get away with. Got my HRE pope in and have been excommunicating factions just for putting their grubby toes in my lands.

Well thats basically it. Initially I was hesitant to play a catholic faction because of the pope but once I saw how many loopholes there were, I came to embrace the Holy father and even made him an ally of the mighty Imperial Empire.

[_Tristan_]

One of the means to get away with practically anything relative to excomm is having a nice college of your cardinals and an assassin roaming the Vatican City...

Attack whoever you wish, get yellow cards, drop your PoM (that's pop-o-meter...) to almost nil...then slit his Hatness throat or poison his mess wine and replace him with one of your cardinals...

Your PoM will rise again to the very top from the lowest reaches of hell...(I could almost feel the flames of damnation... )

[TevashSzat]

Just remember if you get a warning, you can still attack enemies that is in your territory without reprecussions

[Didz]

@Xdeathfire: Are you sure?

I thought a Yellow Card meant no more attacks against that faction anywhere.

[TevashSzat]

Nope, if they are on your territory, they are the aggressor and you have total rights to defend your territory. You might still get the warning about getting excommed when doing so, but the pope never excomms and you never take a relations hit if you do so.

[Didz]

Well thats good to know, I often get other factions camping armies in my territory. Hungary are doing right at this minute around Zagreb. There was one game (Civ I think) where you could send a diplomat to tell them to 'piss-off' but that doesn't seem to be an option in MTW2.

[_Tristan_]

Beware... It only works if you are already in a state of war with that faction...If you attack a faction on your home ground that is neutral or allied, you take the risk of getting excomm...so wait for them to attack you (it won't be long...) and sent them back with the Pope's benediction...

MTW2 surely lacks a "Get off" diplomacy option to get rid of trespassers...

[Indy1958]

Gentlemen:

Good morning from Canada!!!! I hope this finds you and yours well. As for me, I could complain...yadda, yadda, yadda.

I remember the Pope pulling that gag on me, ordering me to stop fighting with Milan for he didn't like the shedding of good Christian blood. I sent my diplomat into Genoa, asked for a ceasefire, and got turned down flatter than a pancake.

Would His Hatness like to figure out a solution for this?

Live long and prosper, take care and thank you kindly!!!

Sincerely yours always,

Indy.