Why are Samnites so awesome?

[antisocialmunky]

What are the 'hidden' stats that make Samnite Spearmen so awesome? From looking at the raw stats that the unit card gives you, they look like arrow fodder with their extra armour but lower defense and attack. It all seems a quite mysterious to me.

[Suraknar]

Probably their mental stats.

[abou]

Their attack rate and lethality, which are factors that never really showed up in Vanilla except when you were desperately waiting for artillery to fire.

[fallen851]

Their attack rate and lethality, which are factors that never really showed up in Vanilla except when you were desperately waiting for artillery to fire.

Yeah, that is true, except the part about the Vanilla. The AI is so stupid it sits there under fire...

[Suraknar]

Their attack rate and lethality, which are factors that never really showed up in Vanilla except when you were desperately waiting for artillery to fire.

Does anyone know which file determines lethality?

[Rilder]

EDU i'd think.

[Quilts]

Does anyone know which file determines lethality?

Apparently it's the last entry in the 'Primary and Secondry Weapon Stats' in the 'Export Description Unit' 'file'. Very confusing as they explain (at the very start of the 'file') what 10 of the 11 entries are for, but completely fail to mention 'Lethality'?

Cheers,

Quilts

[Ancyrean]

Quoting from Arkatreides' excellent trading cards, for example, the lethality of Camillan Hastati is 0.13, Principes of the same era, 0.125.

Does anyone have any idea as to what are the lethality stats for Samnite units, for a comparison?

[Arkatreides]

Quoting from Arkatreides' excellent trading cards, for example, the lethality of Camillan Hastati is 0.13, Principes of the same era, 0.125.

Does anyone have any idea as to what are the lethality stats for Samnite units, for a comparison?

Here is an (old) upload of Roman troops that has Samnites on them:

[antisocialmunky]

I was wondering where that guy was on your cards since he's recruited from a level 3 MIC.

It sill kinda find it mysterious that these guys have two less attack, one less defense than Principles and can still outfight similiar units. Does the good stamina really help that much? On campaign, I've found that these guys last the longest even when they're the first to engage.

[Kralizec]

I thought that the old Samnite spearmen had been replaced by the Hastati Samnitici?

EDIT: I also was under the impression that Velites were superior to Leves, but looking at the lethality of both units it seems that the latter would win. Nice cards!

[abou]

Hastati is Latin for spearmen.

[Arkatreides]

I am not entirely sure about this but I believe there is one more factor that contributes to the strength of a unit and that is the attack (or swing) speed. Basically the idea is that not all units execute the same number of swings per second so a faster unit is more powerful that the stats alone would suggest.

As I said I am not 100% sure about this, nor do I know how to get hold of those speed values (I would assume they are tied to the model somehow) so don't quote me on this.

[Ancyrean]

Here is an (old) upload of Roman troops that has Samnites on them:

Thx Arkatreides I take this opportunity to thank you for the awesome job you're doing with your cards project! Great idea, great implementation!

I must confess I didn’t pay enough attention to the Samnites so far, relying more on Principes in general.

I'm currently at work now, so I can't make custom battles to see things in actual situations but I can still attempt to see the difference through some deductive math (to the extent that I don't screw up ), as presented below.

Naturally, players with better grasp of the mechanics and concepts of the game would also notice any misperception of those on my behalf. The swingrates of units would naturally affect the calculation further. In any case, I hope my exercise would at least act as a board to get the correct picture out as far as known stats are concerned.

First, some basics: Principes and Hastati Samnitici are closer in stats so I'll take these two as the basis of a comparison. Here are their comparative numbers, again thanks to Arkatreides' work:

Javelin
HS javelin have 7 for attack (range 30); Principes' pila are 4, but also armour piercing (range 35).

Attack
Both use spear in melee.
HS attack is 8, plus 4 charge; Principes 10, plus 2 charge.

Defence
HS defends with 23; Pr, 20.
When broken down, Pr has only the skill stat higher (9 vs 7). Armour-wise and shield-wise, HS is noticeably better (HS:12 & 4 and Pr: 8 & 3).

Unit mass
HS and Pr are equal in stats here (1.05 for both)

Lethality
HS and Pr are equal in stats here (0.125 for both)

Morale
Pr beats HS 13-11.


Scenario:

Principes vs Hastati Samnitici with no additiopnal experience and no blacksmith boni, advance toward each other (Their lethality and mass are the same so comparison is easier).

Phase 1: The Missile Exchange
- Pr throw their pila; their Armour Piercing 4 against HS armour and shield total (12+4=16, but AP means half armour so it's 6+4): 4 / 10
- HS throw their javelins; straight 7 vs Pr armour and shield total (8+3): 7 / 11

In the above exchange, HS javs are more noticeably more penetrative (0.63 against Pr's 0.4) so I assume more Pr get killed at this stage even with their slightly earlier throw time.

Phase 2: The Charge
- Survivors charge into each other.
- In the resultant clash, HS inflict 8+4 against total Pr defence of 20 (12/20).
- Pr inflict 10+2 against a total HS defence of 23 (12/23)
- HS impact is 0.6, Pr impact is 0.52. So still more Pr die in the initial clash.

Phase 3: The slog-out
- Overall attack and defence values grind into each other.
- HS impact 8 against 20 (0.4), Pr impact 10 against 23 (0.43).
- Very close effectiveness, so probably not enough for the Principes to make up for the losses suffered during phase. Even with their higher morale, they run out of fighters earlier.

Result:
Hastati Samnitici win.

Would you agree with this calculation? Did I get anything wrong? Did anybody ever test these guys against each other before?

Cheers

[Redmeth]

I have a question about the Samnitici Milites, why are they so powerful? I mean why the extra 2 points in Armour and Shield defense values when compared to the Pedites Extraordinarii who are supposed to be the best in the Roman Polybian army?

[antisocialmunky]

Thx Arkatreides I take this opportunity to thank you for the awesome job you're doing with your cards project! Great idea, great implementation!

I must confess I didn’t pay enough attention to the Samnites so far, relying more on Principes in general.

I'm currently at work now, so I can't make custom battles to see things in actual situations but I can still attempt to see the difference through some deductive math (to the extent that I don't screw up ), as presented below.

Naturally, players with better grasp of the mechanics and concepts of the game would also notice any misperception of those on my behalf. The swingrates of units would naturally affect the calculation further. In any case, I hope my exercise would at least act as a board to get the correct picture out as far as known stats are concerned.

First, some basics: Principes and Hastati Samnitici are closer in stats so I'll take these two as the basis of a comparison. Here are their comparative numbers, again thanks to Arkatreides' work:

Javelin
HS javelin have 7 for attack (range 30); Principes' pila are 4, but also armour piercing (range 35).

Attack
Both use spear in melee.
HS attack is 8, plus 4 charge; Principes 10, plus 2 charge.

Defence
HS defends with 23; Pr, 20.
When broken down, Pr has only the skill stat higher (9 vs 7). Armour-wise and shield-wise, HS is noticeably better (HS:12 & 4 and Pr: 8 & 3).

Unit mass
HS and Pr are equal in stats here (1.05 for both)

Lethality
HS and Pr are equal in stats here (0.125 for both)

Morale
Pr beats HS 13-11.


Scenario:

Principes vs Hastati Samnitici with no additiopnal experience and no blacksmith boni, advance toward each other (Their lethality and mass are the same so comparison is easier).

Phase 1: The Missile Exchange
- Pr throw their pila; their Armour Piercing 4 against HS armour and shield total (12+4=16, but AP means half armour so it's 6+4): 4 / 10
- HS throw their javelins; straight 7 vs Pr armour and shield total (8+3): 7 / 11

In the above exchange, HS javs are more noticeably more penetrative (0.63 against Pr's 0.4) so I assume more Pr get killed at this stage even with their slightly earlier throw time.

Phase 2: The Charge
- Survivors charge into each other.
- In the resultant clash, HS inflict 8+4 against total Pr defence of 20 (12/20).
- Pr inflict 10+2 against a total HS defence of 23 (12/23)
- HS impact is 0.6, Pr impact is 0.52. So still more Pr die in the initial clash.

Phase 3: The slog-out
- Overall attack and defence values grind into each other.
- HS impact 8 against 20 (0.4), Pr impact 10 against 23 (0.43).
- Very close effectiveness, so probably not enough for the Principes to make up for the losses suffered during phase. Even with their higher morale, they run out of fighters earlier.

Result:
Hastati Samnitici win.

Would you agree with this calculation? Did I get anything wrong? Did anybody ever test these guys against each other before?

Cheers

I've done the test and found that its close near the end but the Principles almost always win. I also thought that defense is the value applied in melee and armour is the defense applied against missiles with shield added to front and to the left(kinda).

The battle starts out with light javelin casualties followed by a slugging match taht the Samnites are victorious in the first few minutes until their rate of death becomes higher than the principles and the Principles, with thier superior morale stay until the Samnites invariably break due to higher death rates and lower moral. Try it. I still theorize that their good stamina gives them an advantage until both units become exhausted and are on an even playing field.

[Suraknar]

Apparently it's the last entry in the 'Primary and Secondry Weapon Stats' in the 'Export Description Unit' 'file'. Very confusing as they explain (at the very start of the 'file') what 10 of the 11 entries are for, but completely fail to mention 'Lethality'?

Cheers,

Quilts

oki, these values determine the speed of a unit's hits.

Vanilla units more or less have this the same, except a few.

So in EB, we played with the speed and we called that "Lethality" if I understand correctly.

It makes sence...a unit with an attack of 5, hiting 3 times faster than a unit with an attack of 10 does theoretically 15 damage for every 10 damage the other does...it is therefore considered more Lethal.


But, I dont understand the form...

the description is:

Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)

yet in the stats there is 2 values.

like: stat_pri ..., 25 ,1

in vanilla some units had : stat_pri ..., 25 ,0.73


In EB, the 25 is 0 and the second value is usually very low.

Does someone know exactly what the 2 values stand for?

I am probably wrong here, but could it be that the 1st value is the 1/10ths of a second and the second value is actually a percentage of damage...

[the_handsome_viking]

What are the 'hidden' stats that make Samnite Spearmen so awesome? From looking at the raw stats that the unit card gives you, they look like arrow fodder with their extra armour but lower defense and attack. It all seems a quite mysterious to me.

Realistically speaking, its their combination of fancy clothes and fancy hats.

[Arkatreides]

oki, these values determine the speed of a unit's hits.

Vanilla units more or less have this the same, except a few.

So in EB, we played with the speed and we called that "Lethality" if I understand correctly.

It makes sence...a unit with an attack of 5, hiting 3 times faster than a unit with an attack of 10 does theoretically 15 damage for every 10 damage the other does...it is therefore considered more Lethal.


But, I dont understand the form...

the description is:



yet in the stats there is 2 values.

like: stat_pri ..., 25 ,1

in vanilla some units had : stat_pri ..., 25 ,0.73


In EB, the 25 is 0 and the second value is usually very low.

Does someone know exactly what the 2 values stand for?

I am probably wrong here, but could it be that the 1st value is the 1/10ths of a second and the second value is actually a percentage of damage...

The '1/10 sec' thing refers to the second last entry in the row, NOT the 'lethality'. There is a historic reason for this. Lethality was only introduced through a later patch (1.2 I believe) when CA decided to slow down the kill rates of the battles. The EDU was written for version 1.0 of course and thus the description in the header of that file does not refer to lethality at all.

If you could the entries in the row you see that you have one more than you should.

The 1/10 sec thing is the minimum delay between swings, so for example, archers pause xxx seconds before reloading, horse need yyy seconds before they can charge again, etc.

[Intranetusa]

Thx Arkatreides
Result:
Hastati Samnitici win.

Would you agree with this calculation? Did I get anything wrong? Did anybody ever test these guys against each other before?

Cheers

or you can just test this out in custom battle (principes vs merc hastati samnite spearmen)

btw, what does "lethality" do?

[antisocialmunky]

Realistically speaking, its their combination of fancy clothes and fancy hats.

Yes, I do concede that they have alot of bling.

or you can just test this out in custom battle (principes vs merc hastati samnite spearmen)

btw, what does "lethality" do?

Its either the probability of inflicting HP damage if the attack penetrates defense OR the amount of damage inflicted to HP if the attack penetrates.

[Suraknar]

The '1/10 sec' thing refers to the second last entry in the row, NOT the 'lethality'. There is a historic reason for this. Lethality was only introduced through a later patch (1.2 I believe) when CA decided to slow down the kill rates of the battles. The EDU was written for version 1.0 of course and thus the description in the header of that file does not refer to lethality at all.

If you could the entries in the row you see that you have one more than you should.

The 1/10 sec thing is the minimum delay between swings, so for example, archers pause xxx seconds before reloading, horse need yyy seconds before they can charge again, etc.

Oh wow, thank you for the BG story :)

I bought RTW when 1.2 came out I never played or moded it under 1.0 :P That explains much!

So 25 is the time, and the last number is the lethality! Understood! That makes this very clear :)

[dutch81]

On a somewhat related topic ... why do we lose the samnite swordsman with the first reform but we keep the spearman? It would seem to me that if we have allied with these people that we have both type of units available.

Also someone questioned earlier why the allied extrodinaire (sp?) are so much worse statistically then the samnite yet they cost more? Were these troops really that good or just ancient cannon fodder for Rome w/ a fancy name to boost morale?

[Ancyrean]

or you can just test this out in custom battle (principes vs merc hastati samnite spearmen)

I've run ten custom battles, with the following settings:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- I commanded each time a unit of Principes against an AI controlled unit of Hastati Samnitici. No experience or blacksmith modifiers.
- For the first two battles, I used the Macedonia map and the Samos map, settling on the Pripyat Marshes map (due to its better flatness) for the other 8.
- Calm day, summer weather, morning time settings, medium battle difficulty.
- No sides set as defender.
- All combat fast forwarded until before the missile exchange and again after when the units engaged.
- My only intervention at the battle is a single right click on the enemy unit. AI invariably does the same, upon which the two opposing units advance towards each other.

Observations:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- Principes unit always gets 83 men, HS always 81 (true even when AI controls the Principes).
- The AI (HS) unit always runs the few last yards (does the same when given the command of principes).
- The resultant exchange of missiles therefore occur near simultaneously, but with a very slight (less than a sec) principes headstart in getting the first missile in the air.
- Missile exchange results vary in success for any sides, but the dead on any side usually remained around 5-7.
- Principes stamina always run out ahead of HS (HS reach the warmed up, winded, tired, very tired, exhausted states slightly later than Pr).

In all of the 10 encounters, principes won. Here are the detailed results thereof:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Test no. Missile phase *: Rout happens when:
1 ------------ 2-0 ------------- 50 Pr left vs 26 HS
2 ------------ 2-1 ------------- 57 Pr left vs 12 HS
3 ------------ 3-7 ------------- 43 Pr left vs 15 HS
4 ------------ 3-6 ------------- 39 Pr left vs 28 HS
5 ------------ 6-5 ------------- 35 Pr left vs 5 HS
6 ------------ 3-4 ------------- 26 Pr left vs 11 HS
7 ------------ 1-1 ------------- 59 Pr left vs 20 HS
8 ------------ 2-4 ------------- 53 Pr left vs 38 HS (HS captain KIA before rout)
9 ------------ 3-1 ------------- 34 Pr left vs 27 HS
10 ----------- 6-3 ------------- 32 Pr left vs 28 HS

* Number of soldiers fallen after the exchange, from HS vs from Pr (2-1 means 2 Hastati killed as compared to 1 Principes)

Not content with these results where AI commanded the HS, I ran 10 more custom battles giving the AI the command of Principes (with exact the same settings, all on Pripyat map again).

Observations (where different from the previous observations above):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- AI controlled Principes run the last few yards before firing pila (a mirror image of when AI controlled the HS), slightly decreasing the time difference they already had in their favour for getting the first missile in the air.

The results of this set of battles were different, in that the HS won on three engagements (1st, 6th and 8th trials). Results of these HS won battles are:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Test no. Missile phase *: Rout happens when:
1 ------------ 4-1 ------------- 15 Pr left vs 16 HS (right after Pr captain gets KIA)
6 ------------ 4-3 ------------- 4 Pr left vs 16 HS
8 ------------ 1-4 ------------- 18 Pr left vs 275 HS (right after Pr captain gets KIA)

* Number of soldiers fallen after the exchange, from HS vs from Pr

The remaining 7 times, the Principes won, with the following details:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Test no. Missile phase *: Rout happens when:
2 ------------ 1-5 ------------- 33 Pr left vs 20 HS
3 ------------ 5-4 ------------- 14 Pr left vs 10 HS
4 ------------ 6-5 ------------- 43 Pr left vs 13 HS
5 ------------ 5-1 ------------- 25 Pr left vs 23 HS
7 ------------ 2-2 ------------- 42 Pr left vs 28 HS
9 ------------ 5-3 ------------- 22 Pr left vs 11 HS
10 ----------- 3-1 ------------- 44 Pr left vs 22 HS

* Number of soldiers fallen after the exchange, from HS vs from Pr

Conclusions:
-The incidence of 3 HS wins under human command, although curious, are probably not due to the mere fact of human command itself, given that still 7 Pr wins occurred in the same test set.
-I'm inclined to think the initial missile exchange, even with the issue of AI units running the last few yards and getting some advantage, is not determinative, given the small numbers of kills with variable enough results.
-Overall, I think a score of 17 wins out of 20 is a good enough indicator to make a case for overall Principes superiority under equal conditions.

[the_handsome_viking]

I am not entirely sure about this but I believe there is one more factor that contributes to the strength of a unit and that is the attack (or swing) speed. Basically the idea is that not all units execute the same number of swings per second so a faster unit is more powerful that the stats alone would suggest.

As I said I am not 100% sure about this, nor do I know how to get hold of those speed values (I would assume they are tied to the model somehow) so don't quote me on this.

With swordsmen do you ever put them into loose formation to attain a desired quick rout effect?

I use this tactic quite a lot and it seems to work most of the time for the simple fact that it gives more of the men a crack at the enemy, this is especially good with a Celtic sword infantry charge.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm seeing the men speed up in terms of swordwork or that they are just getting more of a chance to use their weapons.

[antisocialmunky]

Good test, Ancyrean. Those are the same observations I've noted.