Kill mongols the easy way

[Keldoron]

Currently playing Turks campaign H/H vanilla 1.1.
Timescale = 1.0 and at turn 190

Use jannissary archers inside your cities/castles. Lay down their spikes infront of the gates, and to the walls adjacent the gate where you expect them to breach.

I did this against a the last 3 mongol generals with full stacks attacking Baghdad. They come charging through the holes in your wall, while suiciding all their generals into the spikes lol. I lost the city in the end, but it was funny to see the mongol faction get destroyed so easily because they lost all their generals in one assault lol.

That invasion lasted 3 turns :p

[TevashSzat]

yes stakes work quite well against mongols in siege but in open field, the mongols would win easily due to their strong emphasis on range

[vonsch]

Stakes at a bridge work nicely too. Assuming you can get the Mongols to actually do anything but run away. My last game as Turks I think they attacked me two whole times. And they never attacked a ctiy or castle. I had to hunt those cowards down!

[Didz]

My tactic playing Russia was Mercenary Crossbowmen and Dismounted Dvor lining the castle walls.

Let the Mongols lay seige, then every turn declare a sally, fire every crossbow bolt and arrow you have into the Mongol horde outside the city, inflicting between 35% and 55% losses on them every turn until they finally as assault. When the arrows run out exit the battle and accept the draw having inflicted hundreds of kills on them for just a few losses, and then replenish your arrows and do it again next turn.

When they assault focus your archers on their Rams. If you can burn all their Rams their stuffed because horses can't climb ladders, and they can't get off their horses.

If that fails and your gate is breached, don't panic, block the main road to the city centre with your best spearmen on 'HOLD POSITION' and leave your archers and crossbowmen on the walls.

Let the Mongols rush their cavalry through the gate. They normally make a B-Line for the city centre and will run straight into your Spearmen blocking the street. They can't work round the flanks which are protected by buildings (Make sure you are well clear of any side streets so that if you get pushed back your flanks don't end up in the air.)

Their horse archers will usually jam themselves just inside the gate and try and shot your men on the walls. However, this time the jokes on them as they can't open order and they can't run round in circles. So, its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Their heavy cavalry and general units will usually try and force their way through your spearmen. Let them...they die eventually and if it looks like they might actually break through charge them with the heavy cavalry/ general unit you have in reserve.

A nice bonus option I used once was to deploy a catapult I had hanging around in the city centre and let it lob fireballs into the mass of Mongol horsemen trapped inside the gate. At the end of the battle it had clocked up a kill count in the hundreds.

When they break and run...and they always did...launch your cavalry in pursuit. You can't catch a mongol horseman in theopen but they tend to get jammed trying to escape through the gate, just remember to stop firing arrows and fireballs at them before you charge.

I dealt with 3 Mongol armies at once using this approach and killed all their generals including their Khan.

[Skott]

I pretty much do like Didz said above. I let them die trying to take my cities. Whenever possible I try to kill their leader on the first sally out with my siege and archers. That way on their next turn the Mongol army isnt as well lead and sometimes will just give up and go away. If they do assault they do it with less vigor and intellegence it seems. Take out the Generals and a Mongol stack is alot easier to deal with.

[TevashSzat]

What I do against Mongols is create a cav only stack. In the beginning, I group my cav in 5 groups of 4 units and send them out to run down the enemy horse archers and cavalry. Once that is done, the enemy has lost mobility and then just surround and charge the remaining infantry. As for timurids....I keep a couple serpentines with all of my armies when operating nearby

[Henry the Fifth]

I don't know how you managed to get Jannisary archers by the time the Mongols invaded but I just fought off both a Mongol and Timurid invasion as the Turks using this tactic. I concentrated on building succeeding wall levels and then built the Cannon towers after gunpowder discovery. You can just do this in time for the invasion. I then filled ctites most likely to be attacked with Saracen and Jannisary infantry. When the horde layed siege before they could build siege engines I went into battle mode. The Mongols appraoch in front of the walls close enough for the cannon towers to pund them and inflict heavy casulties without a sortie. This either caused them to with draw or made their siege assault in the next turn too weak to penetrate my wall of infantry. With the Mongols they destroyed most of their army just to sack Bahgdad and destroyed the remnants in front of Mosul. The Timurids destroyd themselves in front of Antioch. Only setback is the amount of money and time wasted to continue expansion while you fend off the hordes!

[TinCow]

I've been fighting the Mongols as the English recently and have had a major victory and a major defeat. I had tried to funnel them into attacking my citadels which were heavily defended, but they wouldn't comply so I had to start engaging them in the field.

I took my strongest army (about 8 retinue longbows w/ silver armor and 2 chevrons, 8 Armored Swordsment w/ weapons upgrades, 3 Hospitaller Knights w/ bronze armor and 3 chevrons, and a good general) and stood in their path. I was attacked by 3 armies at once. The setup wasn't ideal, as most of my territory was on the back end of a hill. I moved as close to the top as I could and setup stakes. When the battle started I decided to try and get the high ground and advanced forward into a line along the top ridge and began shooting. It didn't take long before the Mongol cavalry started charging my entire line and I crumbled everywhere within a few minutes. Total defeat, lost my general and only managed to save about 2 units of longbows and swordsmen each. The fact that it was 3 v 1 didn't make a difference. I would have lost even if it had been 1 v 1.

After that I was really wary of engaging them in the field again, so my next army (pretty much identical to the first, except 1 extra longbow) I sat on the bridge next to Jerusalem. They went around me, took the city, and then attacked my bridge army from both sides. Even with the bridge blocking one army, I knew I would have been totally crushed by the other coming from my rear, so I withdrew. I didnt go far enough though and they followed and hit me with 2 full stacks at once. Again I wasn't quite at the top of the hill, but it wasn't a horrid position, so I laid my stakes and this time didn't budge. They avoided the stakes and attempted to flank, but since I was able to concentrate my infantry and cav on the sides, I held them easily. My longbows slaughtered everything in sight and they eventually withdrew. Their losses were 85%, mine were 25%. The AI turn kept going and they hit me with a third full stack. I repeated the above strategy and stayed behind my stakes. This time they lost 75% and I lost 10%.

So, it seems to me that they can be fought in open field battles, but only if you have large stake armies and don't move from behind them. Of course, if you can get them to assault a reasonably well defended fortress/citadel, that's easier.

[vonsch]

Yeah, TC, gotta have those stakes in open field, or an all cav force, to have much chance. But the bridges are great, just make sure you get them coming from one side only. I've pulled off battles with forces coming from both sides of a river, but only when the reinforcements are infantry! They are slow enough that you can sometimes crush the original force, then shift sides of the river. Or successfully screen off the reinforcements with something mobile until you can shift. But not against horde horse archers and cav in any number. Too fast and they can shoot on the move.

Walls and bridges are the best bets. Once you know the battle terrain well, there are some passes that will work too. I am still at the guessing stage there, but I've seen some places where they can easily be beaten in the mountains too. Heh, mostly because I tried to attack them there and decided that was a BAD idea. Lots of cliffs. Places where approach is worse than with bridges. But you really need to learn those spots by playing a lot of battles in the mountains there.

Jerusalem has some great cliffs and ridges around it too, but you need to learn those also. And be sure you're on the right side of them.

I've only fought them as Turks to date (working on getting that far with Russians now). My JA had the stakes too. I managed one nice bridge battle with an infantry force, but couldn't tempt them into another. All the rest were HA armies, mostly hitting and running, taking the "loss" to whittle them down until I could crush the remnants. But I did manage an ambush once, and that was a blast. Single full stack all lined up nicely on the road, with high ground on one side, cav in the van, infantry (mostly archers in the rear). I set up HA on both high and low sides of the foot troops, but kept the rest and my general on the high side of the cav. The cav got shot up from range and upkill, the infantry got charged to force them to skirmish as my HA shot them to pieces. That was one full Mongol stack that took a licking by my Turkomen and Sipahi. Other than that the only place I beat full stacks was on bridge battles. The rest was attrition. Their HA are just better than Turk HA. Mamluks might whup them though.

I never got the Mongols to attack a single city though. All had stone walls, at least, and good garrisons, and they'd approach and then leave. Never even tried to besiege. Next time I will use smaller garrisons. It's quicker to lose a city or two and retake them than spend decades chasing the Mongols through the mountains trying to force battles in favorable terrain. Get them to attack the walls and attrit them that way.

[Cadwallon1]

I found the bridge east of Antioch to be the best way to kill as many mongols as quickly as I could. No way they can outflank you, with a fully stocked citadel between the bridge and the huge fortified city of Antioch. I was halfway through upgrading to cannon towers when they hit me - I took down 4 stacks of Mongols with my general before the defending force at the bridge (saracen militia, dismounted sipahi, supported by turkish archers) became too threadbare.

By this stage, following a couple of other battles (never a pitched one - they WILL walk over you) The final stack with his khan was besieging Antioch, which due to replacements for my field army was underdefended - despite the ballista towers etc. I pulled together an assault army and rear attacked him with my now full star general. Dismounted Sipahi Lancers, combined with saracen militia and also some of those naptha throwers did for him. In the end it was surprisingly easy. It was now only beholden on me to dispatch the last mongol stack (much diminished) hunting down the fugitive Khan with Sipahi Mounted Archers...

Of course 10 turns later they respawned with about 8 full strength stacks - taking me completely off guard! By this stage I'd moved my monster stacks south to finish off the egyptians and west to fight off a resurgent Byzantine Empire....

Interesting, that its now late 1300 and I have yet to have to fight a Crusade. They keep on getting called on Toulouse off all places! Perhaps the Cathars are making an appearance? Whereas my Jihads have all been successful - even capturing Milan of all places. Perhaps keeping in good with the Pope's been a good thing..

[sableblack]

just found a new way to kill mongols.
1st play as moors.
2nd have the mongols attack your city with a full stack in northern europe before you even realise that they are in these parts.
1 put my 2 archer units on walls. 2 spear units on walls. my 3rd and last merc spearman well back from gate but facing it (no artillary thank god) on guard mode. also have 3 units of camel gunners. one behind spears and back a way and one to left.
general in reserve.
seige tower as per leaves one mongol unit routed.
everyone else charge through the front gate. attack spears. gunners on fire at will moment they pass through the gate. never seen mongols rout like that. some units routed three times or more and then returned.
was just funny watching them wavering and refusing to approach that one spearman unit which survived the whole battle.
i read a thread about how camel gunners rock and they were right. but this right??
still the mongols are so aggresive i think my world will be better if they are removed from the map.
now where can i get more camels....ahh citadels all over northern europe all seem to be able to make them. special cold resistant camels it seems.

[crpcarrot]

just been readin tis thread and was wondering has anyone updated their tactics since 1.2?

[Shahed]

carrot you having trouble with the Mongols ?

[crpcarrot]

i do but then i enjoy it :) just wanted to see how differently people deal with them. but they seem to avoid seigning since 1.2 and they been runing around doing nothing for ages. i'm spread a little thin at the moment as i played the first part too slow trying to be at peace with the egyptians.

first time i faced mongols 1.2 playing turks yesterday and a unit of SI about 8 ranks deep in guard mode stopped a mongol HC charge dead on its tracks! i didnt think they would i was pleasantly suprised. i still lost the battle though just too many of them. i think with favourable terrain they can be beaten.

[Empirate]

Just wanted to add some observations and battle stories. Good thread, though hardly original...

In my Hungarian, 1.2 vanilla, VH/H game, I sat tight for a long time after an initial conquering spree, just teching up and getting very reliable reputation. I finally joined a crusade against Antioch, which was held by the Mongols then. They had come quite some while ago and were all over the place, from Gaza to Yerevan and Adana, everything was theirs. This meant they had split up their damn horde, though, so I only ever had to face single stacks. These were still the many-chevroned troops they start out with, and had those pesky eight star, max dread generals. Still, my balanced troops (Pavese XBows, Halberd Militia as backbone, plus Royal Banderium and Hungarian Nobles, mix in a Basilisk or two and two to three DCKs) were able to take Antioch without too much trouble, partly due to the fact that the Mongols weren't that strong in the north. A few turns later, though, they brought over some pretty impressive stacks - their usual mix of high-exp mounted archers, hybrid foot troops and Lancers, plus Rocket Launchers and stuff. I diminished their numbers in siege defenses, as many other people here seem to have done, rapidly took Acre and Jerusalem through more crusading, and was ready to call it a day, when all of a sudden the Timurids showed up.
At that time (you know what comes next, don't you?) I was already hit by the plague, and my economy was reeling so hard I thought I'd never see black numbers again. Luckily, the Tims quickly got into a war with the Mongols, taking Baghdad, Mosul and Edessa off them. However, they seemed to prefer to stay in Horde mode, they never kept a settlement. They only plundered stuff and went on. I had to keep them at bay using only the forces present, and on top of all this, some European neighbours declared war (Danes even took Vienna... ), so I couldn't send reinforcements from the motherland. Things were looking grim.
I had one max-chivalry, max-stars general in Antioch, and he was instrumental in getting rid of the Tims. My first attempts at open field battle failed dismally; unnerved, I reloaded. I had never seen elephants in action, they walked right over me. So I changed tactics and waited for siege defenses. This worked OK once or twice, as the Tims couldn't seem to decide if they really wanted a city or not. They'd siege for a turn, allowing me to sally, ballista towers taking heavy tolls on them, then they'd lift the siege and go after my field armies instead. I waited it out as best I could, and slowly, my economy recovered. I took Adana, Gaza and Edessa with my field armies, not wanting to face the Tims in the open again, and tried to lure them into bridge battles, which they continued to decline.
I finally thought wtf, I must fight them sooner or later, I'm in the black again and can handle a few losses. Thus, my general attacked in the field with an elite stack. I wanted to inflict casualties, then withdraw. Naturally, things didn't work out so well. When the Heavy Lancers charged, my lines broke. My heavy cavalry was no match for theirs; my Halberd militia was no match for their infantry OR cavalry (realized this too late; I had to go mostly without castle infantry); Hungarian Nobles can't hold a candle to Mongol Heavy Archers. Basilisks are useless against elephants, as they reload too slowly and aren't accurate enough. Only my PavXBows seemed to work, but these couldn't hold a line against the Tim rush.
I hoped to fight the Tim stacks one by one; that way, I might win individual battles despite heavy losses. Alas, no such luck. All Tim generals seemed to be Night Fighters! My own Night Fighter (10*, 10chiv, s. a.) didn't help at all here. So I waited for chances to at least only take on two stacks. My first field battles all were closely fought, and against stacks without elephants, I even won. The key is using the terrain! On the strategy map, watch out for high terrain, attacking from the mountains. This way, not only do you get free shots in plus a melee advantage, the enemy is also preoccupied with maneuvering much of the time.
Also, artillery in small numbers proved good for provoking a premature charge against (hopefully) set halberds. I got rid of Halberd Militia in the course of only two battles, and filled the gaps with heavy castle infantry where possible. Pavese Spearmen proved effective cav-stoppers, but DCK were much better where durability and morale were concerned. Also, I overloaded the missile part of my armies. In one huge battle, I fought three full Tim stacks (all without elephants, though) with only one stack and four units reinforcements. I wouldn't have won the battle but for making full use of high terrain, the reinforcing general's gold-chevroned fighting capability (ended up with 300-odd kills) and seven regiments of PavXBows plus one of Bulgarian Brigands. These made my main battle line. The heavy infantry was there for holding the enemy, the PXBs for shooting up everything in sight. Each of those PXB units earned two or three chevrons in that battle, the same goes for the three (depleted) Basilisks I had.
I attrited them, and whenever elephants showed up, I tried to whittle away the conventional forces as much as possible. I made a full stack of Hungarian Nobles for this purpose. They were more or less fast enough to stay out of the way of elephants, and took a toll on infantry and cavalry. It took me the sacrifice of approximately 60 units, most of them infantry, to whittle down the ten stacks the Tims had brought to only one - 3 stacks lost to 9, not too bad, eh? This stack, though, contained seven elephant units plus assorted ragtag cav and inf, greatly depleted in former battles. Then came the only battle in which I ever successfully attacked an army containing elephants. I had my seven trusty PXBs (refitted for full strength) and BulBrigs, plus a few Halberd Militia, DCKs and Hussars (great stuff for the money, one of my favorite units!). I occupied a slight rise on a surprisingly flat battlefield near the coast of Acre, while the Tims sat on the beaches. My seven PXBs in a long, open formation concentrated their fire on one regiment of Elephants at a time. This did the trick, the first elephant unit was gone in five or six volleys. The elephant artillery was a large problem, though, they cost me a lot of men. When the last Tim general charged, I met him with infantry and basically let them slug it out in melee. My main objective was to kill as many eles as possible, and my PXBs continued to do a great job. Ele muskets and cannonballs couldn't deplete them fast enough, and elephant charges were stopped by sacrificial units while all fire was concentrated on them at short range. This did the trick, and finally, the last Panzerphant was routed, harried by Hussars.

To summarize: To win a field battle against Mongols and Timurids alike, make sure of the following:

-maintain a massive advantage in terrain. The importance of this is first and foremost.

-get yourself a very good general for the job, else all your troops are easily routed by max-dread generals and mongol troops with huge shock impact - artillery, elephants, Lancer charge. The latter two proved deadly almost every time.

-overload on long-range, armor-piercing missiles. PXBs are good for the job. I imagine Musketeers would be even better. The terrain advantage makes up for your lack of infantry.

-only take three or four cavalry, as they're inferior to mongol cav anyway. Your killing power lies in missiles, as strange as that may sound.

-have reinforcements ready, especially heavy cav and heavy inf, to quickly plug the gaps.

-don't be afraid to lose a battle once in a while, you can withdraw and refit easier than they.

-concentrate fire to quickly take down a strategically chosen element of the enemy army. I took out almost all Timurid infantry first, so they couldn't hurt me in sieges and I could do to them what I wanted in sallies. I took out elephants last, as these take a lot of firepower and can soak up your ability to deal out damage in a battle.

-fear elephants. Try to avoid them. They're quite unbalanced in some ways (tactically, not strategically), so leave them for when you're ready to deal with them.

-taking out the enemy general is as important as in MTW here. Usually, I don't much care about the enemy general, but against the Mongols/Timurids, it's important to take care of those high-dread suckers.


Veeery lengthy post here... hope you forgive me!

[andrewt]

I haven't fought them yet as the Turks but my Sipahis with full armor upgrade (1 only) and at least 1 chevron has slightly better stats than the Mongol's 3 silver chevron heavy missile cavalry. I haven't fought them yet because they spawned in Sarkel and they just recently conquered Russia. I think it was after gunpowder was already discovered when they did. I think I'll finish conquering 45 provinces and finishing the game before they attack me. The Hungarian's last province, Iasi, has a full stack and is a fortress and it stands between their capital of Kiev and my lands. I deliberately didn't conquer it. I think Janissary muskets with Qapukulu support against their cav can hold them off. I'm going to add some Sipahis, Ottoman infantry and Janissary archers just because I can't make the muskets fast enough. And I have 4 provinces who can make them now.

[WhiskeyGhost]

As Egypt on Vanilla 1.2 H/VH settings, i found the best way to deal with them is to send out some mamluk archers and do what you can to get around behind them and destroy those blasted trebuchets and rocket launchers. After that, its easy since they are easily defended against in sieges and good defensive battles (not necessarily bridge, a good hill battle works just as well if you have enough spears to hold your lines against their cavalry, while your archers pick off theirs). Strangely enough, they appeared near Tblisli and Baghdad but every wave wanted to come take over my new capital, Jerusalem. Even though they had 4 full stacks sieging me, i found it quite easy to disperse them defending if you actually let them on the walls, and break up any units they try to ram the gates down with. Just manage your archers away from ladders, and have them shoot the mongols up as they come over the wall. It's hilarious watching many hundreds of infantry die to archers direct firing them on the wall

[phunkbot]

ok so i did feel bad doing it, but it was the easiest way to kill the Mongols. They arrived in only 5-6 stacks and since they went for my good buddies Turkey and not me and my deeply echeloned (meat wave) defences(i was playing Russia) i couldnt fight them so my assassins went in and brutalized the whole invasion, killed everyone in 2 turns. Poor things couldnt do any damage whatsoever, i hope the Timuruids choose better and come to give me a fight so i can see them elephants

[crpcarrot]

in my current turk campaign they've just become a nuisance

they never attacked any of my armies trying to catch them in sratergic locations. they just seem to be having a ice time hanging out together going for short walks in the barren deasert. they havent even tried to take any of my cities. theres one which has just wooden walls and only militia garrisioning it, and still they just walk past turn after turn. all the waves are here now met them in only one battle which i managed to whittle down 2 stacks 2 25% now i'm bored i keep playing my turns fast to try and see if they will attack me at the fords/brideges where i'm boxing them in but they just seem to be confused.

i've got bored of waiting, maybe i'll just wait for those hihg dread generals to die naturally and then attack them on the plains. do they respawn replacements with equal stats?

having all those stacks waiitng for them has severly eaten into my treasury. i'm having to sack sities just to keep my home provices uilding programme going. i'm enjoying this campaign its making me do a lot of things i dont want to :)

[Matty]

I'm currently playing as the Russians and having a fair old time with the Mongols. I have two castles currently able to produce elite troops but hardly any cash to pay for them. The remainder of my cities are stacked fully with militia troops. My 9 star king has just been killed but luckily his heir is also 9 stars after a defensive campaign against Poland. Three of my cities were overrun by the horde - once they get through the gates the half stack of high experience cavalry just ploughs through everything. Their one attack on a castle was however unsuccessful as soon as I had surrounded and killed their general. I'm waiting for them to attack my other castle. One of my cities is also under siege, but contains 8 units of dismounted dvor, who should pack something of a surprise punch.

Its pretty tough going and for once, I am far from sure whether I will survive this one.

[crpcarrot]

grrr i wish my mongols would finish their picnic and decide to find a home

[WhiskeyGhost]

grrr i wish my mongols would finish their picnic and decide to find a home

i've seen the Mongols post 1.2 patch only attack 1 "non home" city so far. They attacked the castle the Turks start off with near Baghdad. After they won, it turned Rebel, and they moved on to try to take Antioch/Jerusalem. Methinks they might be trying to focus more on getting themselves a home as apposed to fighting needless battles now

[crpcarrot]

well in my campaign all 3 waves have arrived turn 106 or someting and they have still to even seige a city. however they cant seem to stand the sight of a fort. thats what i'm using to draw them out.