Princepes with spears?

[Swebozbozboz]

I was just wondering why the Eb team decided to have the princepes wield a spear instead of a gladius? It seems other mods [and the vanilla version] agree they were just a heavier amoured, veteraned, hastati-type infrantry, while this mod sees them without the swords of the hastati. In the EB they are almost a cross between hastati and triarii.

Does the EB team have any super secret evidence the other modders and games designers don't have? Is the spear just a hunch? Did they use both a spear and a sword and so you decided that for a more unique unit the spears were right?

I'm very curious about this. I love the mod and i have a blast no matter which faction i play. Sometimes when I need a break from the loading times i fire up vanilla or another RTW mod, and they just look ridiculous in comparison, and i quickly exit and play EB.

So cheers, and thanks for your time and help.

[CaesarAugustus]

Sometimes when I need a break from the loading times i fire up vanilla or another RTW mod, and they just look ridiculous in comparison, and i quickly exit and play EB.

Haha I knoew what you mean, today I startes a Vanilla RTW campain as Egypt, and I almost fell out of my seat laughing as soon as I saw the charioteers and Egyptain New-Kingdom infantry.

No idea about the Principes though, if it's in EB, then chances are it's historically accurate.

[Intranetusa]

That's a good question - that's what I wanted to know too when I first started playing.

Also, not trying to hijack the topic from the poster, but: Why do almost
80%+ of the foot soldier units have javelins they can throw? I didn't know so many barbarian, egyptian, easter, etc factions threw pillas before charging...

[Watchman]

AFAIK the theory goes that the early "Camillian" Princeps used spears (a sort of leftover from the old hoplite army), and the first-line Hastati were the only ones using short swords as their primary melee weapons around that time. Later this changed - probably partially prompted by the adoption of the excellent gladius hispaniensis - which is in EB represented by the "Polybian" reforms and the accompanying changes in the unit roster.

[L.C.Cinna]

Camillan principes have a hasta (spear) in EB. Wait for the Polybian reforms to get the later principes with pila and sword. The Vanilla version of RTW started with Polybian style troops, that's why.

hope this answers your question.

[Watchman]

Also, not trying to hijack the topic from the poster, but: Why do almost
80%+ of the foot soldier units have javelins they can throw? I didn't know so many barbarian, egyptian, easter, etc factions threw pillas before charging...

'Cause it's a simple, cheap and cheerful way to provide foot soldiers in particular with some ranged punch that can be used to inflict casualties and disorder in the enemy ranks before close combat. The tactic actually survived pretty long into the Middle Ages, although Europeans weren't overall that fond of it anymore. Nonetheless period sources often refer to javelin-throwing being regarded as part of the proper training of a good soldier, and even knights practised it; they're also mentioned in use by light cavalry in some fairly late-period battles.

[Intranetusa]

but is it historically accurate to portray so many foot soldiers as having javelins? even the aedui, averni, casse, sweboz, etc factions?

thxs

[CaesarAugustus]

Yes because pretty much every foot soldier in the ancient world used some form of javelin.

[L.C.Cinna]

That's a good question - that's what I wanted to know too when I first started playing.

Also, not trying to hijack the topic from the poster, but: Why do almost
80%+ of the foot soldier units have javelins they can throw? I didn't know so many barbarian, egyptian, easter, etc factions threw pillas before charging...

Sorry for the double post but several people posted while I wrote my first one and I wanted to quote for this one.


Of course the others don't use pila but various javelins. Spears and Javelins were the main weapons used especially by Germanics. In such areas where metal production was comparably low swords were only used by richer people.

In the eastern parts the light to medium skirmishers like peltastai for example were in use for quite some time already so the throwing spear was not a Roman invention although the Romans themselves thought that troops like thorakitai were copied from them. This is not true of course because the troops in the east developed independently and such types of soldiers appeared already before the Romans came into any major military contact with the east.

[Intranetusa]

k thxs

[NeoSpartan]

I WANNA GET GOOD AT THROWING THE JAVELING!!!!!

[Watchman]

I understand the thing is among the easiest of ranged weapons to learn (one reason to its extreme popularity), so just grab a suitable stick and go practice in your back yard. What are you waiting for, trooper ? Move move move!

In the eastern parts the light to medium skirmishers like peltastai for example were in use for quite some time already so the throwing spear was not a Roman invention although the Romans themselves thought that troops like thorakitai were copied from them. This is not true of course because the troops in the east developed independently and such types of soldiers appeared already before the Romans came into any major military contact with the east.

By what I've read the pilum wasn't a Roman invention either - they picked it up from other mid/northern Italian peoples and refined the concept. Specimen have been excavated from Etruscan contexts, apparently, for one example.

Out East the idea of "precursor" throwing-spears AFAIK go back at least to Late Bronze Age. For more "primitive" peoples it was a very logical developement in any case - just about all of them used javelins for hunting larger game to begin with, so warriors could be expected to both own and be skilled with them; after skirmish use (the easily most logical one, especially for low-organization low-population "primitives) the idea of tossing them at the enemy warband en masse before charging in cannot have been a very demanding leap.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I WANNA GET GOOD AT THROWING THE JAVELING!!!!!

Okay here you go:
grab yourself a stick, make sure the front is relatively heavy compared to the rest of it;
lean over to the side of one of your legs (either left or right depending on what you prefer), so that your other is tensed;
grab your stick, and make sure to use your left hand if you're leaning over on your left leg and use your right hand if it would be your right leg - make sure that the arm is tensed;
make sure that the tip of your stick is on the same height as your nose, and that it's pointing in a 45 degree angle with the ground - keep everything tensed;
quickly move your weight from one of your legs (the right one if your hold your 'javelin' in your right hand) to the other, whilst jumping up a little without actually getting "airborne", and hurl away your javelin - all at the same time.

If you use a proper javelin like you're given for atletics, then you should be able to easily hurl it some 18 metres away or more. After just 1 - 3 rounds of practice that is.

Now time to go for the kill.

[Boyar Son]

Okay here you go:
grab yourself a stick, make sure the front is relatively heavy compared to the rest of it;
lean over to the side of one of your legs (either left or right depending on what you prefer), so that your other is tensed;
grab your stick, and make sure to use your left hand if you're leaning over on your left leg and use your right hand if it would be your right leg - make sure that the arm is tensed;
make sure that the tip of your stick is on the same height as your nose, and that it's pointing in a 45 degree angle with the ground - keep everything tensed;
quickly move your weight from one of your legs (the right one if your hold your 'javelin' in your right hand) to the other, whilst jumping up a little without actually getting "airborne", and hurl away your javelin - all at the same time.

If you use a proper javelin like you're given for atletics, then you should be able to easily hurl it some 18 metres away or more. After just 1 - 3 rounds of practice that is.

Now time to go for the kill.

Yes but for some reason medaeval troops in MTW2 dont prefer javilins anymore...

These are early Romans, I wouldnt expect to have them gloriously outfitted untill the time of Marius.

[Watchman]

*shrug* Javelins sort of fell out of fashion in most parts of Europe by the Middle Ages. Dunno why really, but in any case they were quite popular among all warriors in the Iberian peninsula, High Medieval Italian city militia laws make passing references to them, and they remained in reasonably wide use in the Muslim world.

[Watchman]

These are early Romans, I wouldnt expect to have them gloriously outfitted untill the time of Marius.

Given that the Republican militia armies bought their own gear I'd actually expect them to be more 'gloriously outfitted' (whatever that now means here) than the post-Marians with their mass-produced standard-issue kits...

[Boyar Son]

Given that the Republican militia armies bought their own gear I'd actually expect them to be more 'gloriously outfitted' (whatever that now means here) than the post-Marians with their mass-produced standard-issue kits...

Comon! glorious as in Imperial troops of Rome (at least I think so...). The Hastati couldn't afford equipment like the triarri.

[Watchman]

I think the Roman standard legionary kit went for "practical" rather than "imposing". The soldiers themselves of course, in a display of peacockry AFAIK common to all warriors everywhere over the ages (yes, even the modern ones; you know how much importance they actually load to those rank and service and unit badges and the fancy jewelry they're given for doing their jobs well, right ?), would then go on to add all kinds of decorative paraphenelia to suit their personal tastes and look more impressive. I understand many Centurions for example preferred the lorica squamata scale armour to the standard mail hamata, mainly because the scales could be polished to very impressively bright sheen...

[Boyar Son]

Whew! ok WatchMan, You are quite the discusser and debater

But can you name an army that did not try to make themselves imposing by there equipment?

*crosses fingers

[Watchman]

Well, guerillas have tended to be more concerned with stealth. Betcha that's one reason real soldiers have always so looked down on them.

[CaesarAugustus]

Guerillas, maybe?

Whoops, Watchman beat me to it!

[Watchman]

[Boyar Son]

Soo tired, I need to rest my brain.

I cant think of anything else

[Swebozbozboz]

wow, this has turned into quite an informative thread!

ya, i would always get distracted with other factions before i got to any roman reforms.


@caesar augusus: ya i actualy did laugh out loud once when i saw some barbarians come from the britishs isles. they looked like a really really bad holloween sotume mixed with cheesy american football jersey's.



@watchman obviously his noodly appendage granted you witrh some major debating skills to fight off all the non-beleivers!


@everyone: this is excactly why i LOVE this forum! so many well read people, all gathered to talk about the stuff i love to talk about! not many flame-wars either, just a lot of discussions! it's so amazing! what a community EB has!

[Boyar Son]

Muhaha!

Ok, even guerillas raided in a scary (lack of a better word "scary") fasion. The brythonic raids, German raids and invasions at some points. Celt dyed their hair to promote teriffyingness (scariness).

@ Swebozbozboz- American football is awesome

[Swebozbozboz]

the wolves of wodan are pretty scary! [xcept on my computer their weapons don't show up. they look like they are core dancing, if anyone knows what that is.]


ya i love american college and highschool football, and i play highschool football now. that's where it is at. But sometimes i take a step back and look at what we are wearing, it makes me laugh a lil'.

bright colors, metallic stripes, and big "scary" mascots, 3/4 length trousers, and long striped socks.

[Boyar Son]

All for the benefit of the player though!

What is core dancing?

[Watchman]

I don't think painting yourself black or blue, combing your hair into spikes, contorting your face (à la the Maoris) etc. quite count as "equipement". The Gaesatae are debatable of course.

Anyway, they did that for set-piece battles too.

@watchman obviously his noodly appendage granted you witrh some major debating skills to fight off all the non-beleivers!

Oh ye of little faith, His appendages mostly supply me with nutrition. Assuming enough mayonaise is available.

My 1337ness comes from the pirate regalia of course.

[Boyar Son]

No but are part of their "promoting scariness" which is also part of armies tactics. I so won.

[Swebozbozboz]

core dancing is what you do at moshcore or hxc shows. some do it at grindcore but it doens't work as well.


it may look a little silly but man it is a blast because the music is sooo loud and the lights are sooo bright that you just feel like you want to explode. I didn't see any spin kicks but i can do those and and double spin kicks.


this is the best video i could find in 20 seconds. [edit better vid]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oK0mGLtlAE


it's a blast. search around the net for more videos.