Pike and Musket tactics?

[TeutonicKnight]

Is it possible to fight with pike and muskets? If so, how?

I tried using some Tercio Pikes and Musketeers, with some Chivalric Knights for flanking support. It ended badly, very, very badly...

[_Tristan_]

How did you go about it ?

It will be easier to determine what went wrong because it is a quite potent mix altogether...

[TeutonicKnight]

I had my pikes in a thick line. The musketeers were out in front. I kept my cav behind and to the sides, to secure the flanks.

The English were across the valley, and attacking. My muskets opened up at long range, and caused some nice casualties, but once their archers opened up I started losing musketeers. As their line approached, I withdrew through my pike line. Then the archers really started doing damage to the pikes. When their knights started to flank my line, I charged them with mine, and a giant furball ensued. The enemy infantry engaged my pike line with their troops, and my pikes called it quits. Then we all died. :P

If I hadn't been so focused on my own positioning and stuff, I might have been paying more attention to what units they used.

[napoleon526]

Unless the enemy builds lots of heavy cavalry, then training pikes is useless. Personally i've found that staying with dismounted knights and pavise crossbowmen is better than upgrading (except as Spain, whose musketeers are awesome).

This is too bad, since pikes and firearms are what really dealt the death blow to medieval combat. With arquebusiers you get time for maybe one or two volleys before enemy knights are on you.

[napoleon526]

Also, have you installed the pike fix? They are marginally more effective when they don't drop their pikes and fight with swords at the drop of a hat.

[TeutonicKnight]

Well, I've fought with a couple of traditional armies that had Basilisk and Musket support, that turned out really well. Nothing like watching the enemy advance under artillery fire and route before even reaching your lines.

I think a pure 30-years war style army though won't survive the MTW2 engine.

What pike fix? The only "fix" I'm using is Carl's consolidated bugfix. Is that included?

[_Tristan_]

One of the thing you may have done wrong IMO is leaving your cav behind...

When faced with archers and if the infantry line is sufficently lagging behind, I often use my cav to charge on those missile units simply getting the m to skirmish back behind the line of infantry lets you concentrate your fire on higher value troops...

Logically, doing so, archers should have shot less volleys of arrows and your musketeers should have made more kills in his infantry...

You're talking about a valley... Was there a river and a bridge ? Or was it more of a mountainous area ?

If so, could you use a hill to place your battle line thus making the enemy climb up to you....

You should have loosened you pike formation and closed it in time with the enemy advance...

As to their cavalty trying to flank you, try maybe to lure them away with your cav w/o engaging or try to drive them towards your pikes...

The total balance should then have been in your favor...

For the finishing touch, if possible, when the two infantry line engaged, you should have tried to send your cav in the back of the enemy line (on any point where you thought your own line was breaking) to rout those units and then repeat with any still fighting...

I don't know the stats for muskets but IMO they should have been longer than the Eng Bows (correct me if i'm wrong...)

Anyway, it proves that despite a faulty AI, one never knows...Surprise...

[vonsch]

Heh, I suspect your chief problem in that action is spelled "L O N G B O W S." The range there hurts. Not sure if Carl's has the pike fix, but think it does. I haven't gotten to pikes with any of the factions I've been playing, but have followed the discussions of the topic.

I'd line the guns up right crammed into the front of the pikes, so the spear points are out in front of them. Then take them off skirmish and put the pikes on guard. Of course, that's in an ideal world where there aren't pike or musket bugs. Not sure how those would interact with this formation. The animation bug with guns might preclude taking them off skirmish. That would leave hill formations with the guns behind and above the pikes. Nice at bridges, less useful elsewhere.

But with longbows I'd want cav to go keep the longbows skirmishing. If they're moving they can't shoot. But the cav doing so will get shot up if there are a lot of longbows. Eventually they will be scattered enough that some will be shooting while you're charging the others, unless you have a LOT of cav, and the enemy doesn't have cav chasing yours... in which case why pikes?

So, basically, I think you brough pikes to the wrong party. They are very vulnerable to longbows which have AP. Pikes just stand there in close formation making them very hard to miss. Against regular arrows, if the pikes are armored, they have some chance. Against longbows, or crossbows, they are fodder.

I think the best answer (I hope!) is patch 1.2. With luck that will fix the key bugs. Then maybe the modders like Carl can tweak anything else to make things work a bit more in line with what did in the period.

[TeutonicKnight]

I think you might be right.

I did not use my cavalry offensively. I used them only to protect my flanks. They are not fast though. I was afraid of losing too many to the English archers. Still, you raise a valid point. I tend to hold my cavalry in reserve until I absolutely need it.

It was a non-river valley. However, there was very little space to fortify on high ground. I was able to make use of some, but most of my line was on flat and level ground.

I don't understand about loosening the pike formation. They take so long to get into position as it is, and it didn't seem like the muskets had any problem filtering through. It is an option I will have to explore further.

I could have tried to lure the cav away from my flanks I think. I did not consider that. I am not sure how I could drive them into my pikes though.

Muskets are the longest ranged gunpowder infantry. I don't believe they outrange longbows though. Checked - Longbows 160, Musketeers 180. So a marginal range difference.

I think some spearmen or dismounted knights for a reserve would have been smart.

[DukeKent]

I have used pikes very successfuly as the Scots. Both with bows and with mecenary Aquebusiers. Unfortunately the Scots do not get any faction gunpowder infantry Just put your bowmen or gunpowder infantry inside the reach of the pikes for protection and when you have amissle superiority let the missle troops do their thing. When the enemy has a missle superiority then advance with the pikes into the enemy line. I have not lost a battle this way yet. You only have to protect the fanks of this formation. One way to do that is by angling the end units at about 45 degrees. The key to any battle is to force the enemy to fight on your terms, not his. If you have an infantry superiority, then attack him with it. If you have a missle superiority, then rain death on this army at a distance. I also highly recommend that you use cannons with a pike and musket army. Put the cannons in the middle of the line, or at either end of the line. If you place the cannons at the end of the line, and maneuver correctly. You can get enfilade fire on the enemy line with your cannons. Use cavalry to protect your flanks and rear, and to strike the enemy rear and flanks when opportunity presents itself. The key is to initiate the action, and dictate the terms of the battle to the enemy

[_Tristan_]

Yes it would have been a nice solution if you knew in advance what ou had to face...

And maybe lighter and faster cav (Mailed Knights or mounted sergeants) would have been better than chiv Knights

[vonsch]

Yes it would have been a nice solution if you knew in advance what ou had to face...

And maybe lighter and faster cav (Mailed Knights or mounted sergeants) would have been better than chiv Knights

Spies, spies, spies! Intel is all!

[Xehh II]

Why does everyone have problems with this tactic, I seem to be the only person that can do this, it is all I do, pikemen are the best! Pike and musket armys beat everything.

[vonsch]

Why does everyone have problems with this tactic, I seem to be the only person that can do this, it is all I do, pikemen are the best! Pike and musket armys beat everything.

Heh, practice, I suspect. I know I lack it. Practice sure makes a large difference with HA.

Maybe you should write a short guide on how to use pike & gun formations with the existing game. Step by step.

Do you run any mods to fix any of the bugs?

[Xehh II]

Heh, practice, I suspect. I know I lack it. Practice sure makes a large difference with HA.

Maybe you should write a short guide on how to use pike & gun formations with the existing game. Step by step.

Do you run any mods to fix any of the bugs?

I do get a lot of practice because all my armies are made up of them.

My giude is just have the pikes in spearwall and put them somewhere, the guns in front and let them do their thing. I don't know why people have trouble with this.

I have Lands to conquer but in the readme it doesn't say anything about pikes.

[llewellyn]

to the original poster, place you pikes 4 men deep with 2 units of heavy inf on the side. have you cav on one side except for your gen, muskets in front in loose formation. open fire with basilik on both sides, then with muskets. engage enemy missile with a single unit of heavy cav in a tight long line, this will goad the enemy into engaging you, hit them with rest of your cav then pull them all out of there with your muskets now targeting the enemy inf. then let the inf attack you pikes and hopefully your heavies will win and start a flanking manoeuver and you need to mop up or occupy then enemy cav, basically then enemy kills himself on your pikes and if you gain a cav victory hit there rear if not then all is well as your pikes will have buy now gained the upperhand, unless your cav is greatly outclassed. also if you can get a unit or 2 of muskets to the rear of the battle to fire into the rear of the enemy

[DisgruntledGoat]

Well if I understand you correctly you are playing as spain. And so your key mistake (as you have already mentioned) was your use of HEAVY cavalry. I play as Portugal (nearly identical) and I do very very well with pike and musket armies (although I use the Portugese arquebusier and not the musketeer). Although it may not be historically correct I use Jinetes for my cavalry (fully upgraded in armor they are a good medium cavalry). They are faster than my knights and so alot more useful. I would have set up my army just as you did (pikemen 3 men deep to maximize my line length and fighting potential of my pikes) arqubuisers up front and dismounted portugese knights to protect the flanks. Sometimes I will have cannons in the army and if I do I will disperse them amongst the arquebuisers (napoleonic style). Once the enemy is too close I would advance all my infantry to cover the cannons instead of pulling the cannons back.

I would leave my cavalry waiting up front and on the flanks (to give room for my gun powder units) to attack the enemy missile troops once they break out from rest of the infantry units to skirmish. Its almost better to lose all the cavalry ensuring that the missile troops are gone then leave them there and save your cavalry. After that its a standard battle. Which my pikes in the center the enemy will always bring their cavalry to the flanks, which means my knights are gonna have to be in DEEP formation to absorb the charge. I normally try and turn my pikes onto the flanks quickly to get rid of the cavalry and the refocus on the center bringing the remaining Jinetes to crush the enemy on my pikes from behind.

If you don't want to use Jinetes you can use the heavy lancers/knights of spain as well. In this case just use them to run the enemy over and over again (as long as you have cavalry superiority). Charge their line pull back, charge again. You'll lose cavalry but you will decimate the enemy. If they have cavalry superiority you have to make a decision. Engage the missile troops when they get far out in front of the infantry and risk an all out cavalry battle (which you may loose). Or wait for the cavalry and infantry to engage (leaving the missile troops in their rear), swing around and destroy them then. Either case you gotta use your cavalry.

[IrishArmenian]

Use the Cavalry to attack the enemy skirmishers.

[pike master]

remember currently the game is horse and musket.

[TevashSzat]

While Pike and Muskets are very powerful if used correctly, they are the most effective against more traditional armies with large infantry supported by cav and archers. If you face something like a HA or cav or missle dominant army, you would lose easily. Cav can repeatedly charge your musketeers forcing them to continuously run back and eventually they will die and your pikes wont be able to move fast enough to catch them. Missle heavy, they just outshoot you. HA heavy, you just lost because they outshoot you and can repeatedly charge your muskteers without your pikemen able to do anything about it

[Furious Mental]

Well first of all I would say get something like Carl's bugfix to make sure your pikemen actually fight with pikes. Second of all, you forgot that a @pike and musket" armies were actually pike, musket and artillery. The last one is what you need to out range the longbowmen.

[TeutonicKnight]

Thanks for all the replies. You've given me a lot of food for thought for the next run. :)