Dismounted Imperial Knights (Defense)

[Slaists]

Just started my first German campaign and I am perplexed by the vanilla Dismounted Imperial Knight stats. These guys have shields that in vanilla (before any shield fixes) have defense value of 6, armor that has base defense value of 8 and defense skill that has base value of 3. Total frontal defense = 8 + 3 + 6 = 17.

Now, look at dismounted feudal knights that are an earlier period unit: base armor value - 7, base defense skill - 8, shield value 6. Total frontal defense = 7 + 8 + 6 = 21.

What's the logic here? Why would a higher period knight unit with better armor (by 1 point) suddenly become less trained in defense (-5 points in defense skill) than the earlier period knight unit? Any ideas?

[TevashSzat]

Later era units may seem worse than their earlier counterparts, but they usually have lower recuitmen cost and upkeep. This is due to that in feudal times, there were are small group of well trained knights, while in high or late era, it was more just commoners who became soldiers not nobles that dedicated their whole life to fighting.

[Slaists]

I understand your point, but it does not really apply in this case. Feudal Knights and Imperial Knights are both Knights, not commoners. And the latter is not implied by their respective descriptions in the game either. Also, Imperial Knights are the same upkeep as Feudal Knights and only slightly less to recruit.

[TevashSzat]

But in later eras, feudalism has disappeared completely and in general there was less people who were born to be a soldier and thus there were less extremely well trained soldiers. Can you list the special skills that the two knights have? ie high morale or armor piercing

[Slug For A Butt]

Go DFK's. Unless of course you have acces to AS.

[Carl]

Imperial Knights have AP attacks, with a shield fix they are amongst the most dangerous units around.

Reasons for the lower defense skill are simple, Defense skill represents the ease with which a weapon can deflect an incoming blow, a decent sword is much better at this than a mace.

Also bear in mind that DIK represent the Germanic Feudal Lords, who's fighting style is different to that of other areas, in reality they are HRE's version of DFK and theirs no real reason why HRE should have DFK because DIK are HRE's version of DFK. They probably get DFK because DFK (and the mounted version), are "generic" western units that every western European faction gets automatically.

[Slaists]

Reasons for the lower defense skill are simple, Defense skill represents the ease with which a weapon can deflect an incoming blow, a decent sword is much better at this than a mace.

Also bear in mind that DIK represent the Germanic Feudal Lords, who's fighting style is different to that of other areas, in reality they are HRE's version of DFK and theirs no real reason why HRE should have DFK because DIK are HRE's version of DFK. They probably get DFK because DFK (and the mounted version), are "generic" western units that every western European faction gets automatically.

k. point taken about the ability to deflect blows with the mace.

as to DIK representing Germanic Feudal Lords: in the game they appear as a "High Period" unit whereas DFK appears as an "Early Period" unit. no real point to calling them high period/early period in the campaign mode though. both appear as soon as the necessary buildings are in place.

another surprise, looking at the stats, is the relatively low basis morale for DIK's. their base morale is 5 while the base morale for DFK is 9... on the same token, base morale for dismounted english knights is a whooping 11...

the low basis morale of DIK's prevents them from being efficient high period assault troops, which they seem to be designed for. for germany, dismounted feudal knights serve better for that purpose for the whole duration of the game (probably, if one gave 2 hps and ap attribute to forlorn hopes, they would serve good in assaults).

[Husar]

I noticed that they like to run away a lot sooner than DFK, their low morale is a major problem with them.

[Carl]

as to DIK representing Germanic Feudal Lords: in the game they appear as a "High Period" unit whereas DFK appears as an "Early Period" unit.

Bear in mind that Custom battle designations aren't perfect. In reality it's a case of DIK turn up later in SP than DFK so they get the high designation. By the same token it would be pointless to have DIK and DFK turn up together since DIK effectively replace DFK. Thus just because they are a late tech tree high era unit doesn't mean they don't represent the Germanic Feudal lords, it just means that circumstances have resulted in them being put their.

In my Rebuild-ProblemFixer for example I've removed duplication units so mounted and dismounted Imperial Knights now occupy the equivalent tech tree positions of DFK on HRE's Tech Tree, (bearing in mind that all wall units have been moved to a Stable/Barracks/Archery Range as appropriate). Also, thanks for the Morale tip, it might help explain why HRE struggle so much.

[Tyrseno]

Hi Everybody I'm new ,actually it's my first post,but it's quite some time i keep reading the forums and when i found this thread I decided the time was ripe to register.
I noticed nobody mentioned skeleton compensation factor and mass of the men from the export_descr_unit.txt, which are both pretty high for heavy infantry units in general.
More specifically the "skeleton compensation factor in melee" is high in two-handed heavy infantry(1.2 to 1.33) but only average for sword-and-shield heavy infantry.only ecception to this rule is our DIK which has better compensation factor than every other sword and shield infantry.This might mean that DIK are made to act a bit better when facing heavily armoured spear or sword units and eventually cause damage rather than resiting.
It would be nice to make some test to prove this theory. And it would be even nicer if I myself could do this test.but that's impossible because i've never had this game due to high pc requirements.It's a shame i know, but i'm working on it(while i'm a having great fun with the ever-green MTW)

[Zajuts149]

Welcome to the Org!!
Generally, I find that units has too low defense skill, esp. in Kingdoms. 3 is waay too low for Imperial Knights. The Mass factor only has effect in or vs a charge AFAIK. In regular combat, only armour, defense and shield apply.