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Thread: Samurai Warlords beta 8

  1. #61

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    The map, (as its easy to confirm by inspection) has most internal provinces (border all around) at Northern Japan (east end as we see it).

    These are: Shinano,Hida,Kozuke,Shimotsuke,Kai.

    The other two Mino and Omi, are closer to kinki (central Japan area).

    By inspection (and bitter STW experience), Hida is awfully underpowered compared to Dewa and Mutsu for example.

    There are three very strong "edges" that give cookie cutter strategies:

    1.The Musashi/Shimosa(/Hitachi) combo
    2.The Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo combo
    3.The Hizen,Chikugo,Chikuzen combo

    By combos it is meant that they all act as a large "blob", that is very defensible as the total number of bordering provinces and directions of rival expansion is very restricted due to Japan being a squashed ellipsoid. All three combos are at or very close to the very ends of the ellipsoidal map.

    All three of them are strengthened with the presence of a river (in case of 1. passes from two provinces). In addition the combos 1. & 2. are very close geographically. So, its easy for one that dominates in one to get the other quickly too.

    The rest of the map and incomes' distribution is fine, i would say.

    I would redistribute wealth from some of the combo provinces to internal/stagnating provinces (like Osumi/Hida/Etchizen) and also take out the river battle from certain invading directions at least. River provinces that also have considerable wealth,like Musashi, Echigo and Chikuzen are way to easy "safe-standard" points of expansion all the more as they have other rich lands around them.

    Rivers may be present as a decor in battles or even partly or with crossing points (if feasible/possible).Another way would be to add a river map in between other non-river maps in the library for that province and so get a river battle randmly once in a while.

    Many thanks

    Noir
    Last edited by Noir; 04-26-2007 at 15:16.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Total income for all of Japan = 26626
    Total borders for all provinces = 244
    Average per border = 109

    Since Sado has no land borders you could make 109 a base income for all provinces. This is close to the existing minimum income of 112 for Awajii. If desired, making the base value larger would reduce the difference in income between provinces.

    total income - total provinces * base = amount to be scaled by number of borders
    26626 - 60 * 109 = 20086

    amount/total borders = income per border
    20086/244 = 82

    province income = borders * 82 + 109

    The richest province would be Shinano with an income of 929.

    average income = average borders * income per border + 109 = (244/60) * 82 + 109 = 442
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 04-26-2007 at 15:52.

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  3. #63

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir
    By inspection (and bitter STW experience), Hida is awfully underpowered compared to Dewa and Mutsu for example.
    Using the topographic method:

    Hida = 519
    Dewa = 273
    Mutsu = 519



    Quote Originally Posted by Noir
    There are three very strong "edges" that give cookie cutter strategies:

    1.The Musashi/Shimosa(/Hitachi) combo
    2.The Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo combo
    3.The Hizen,Chikugo,Chikuzen combo
    Under the topograhic system:

    1. Musashi 601 + Shimosa 437 + Hitachi 355 = 1393
    2. Dewa 273 + Mutsu 519 + Echigo 519 = 1311
    3. Hizen 273 + Chikugo 437 + Chikuzen 437 = 1147

    Under the beta 8 incomes they are:

    1. Musashi 1185 + Shimosa 537 + Hitachi 1149 = 2871
    2. Dewa 741 + Mutsu 1110 + Echigo 723 = 2574
    3. Hizen 760 + Chikugo 594 + Chikuzen 566 = 1920

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


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  4. #64

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Originally posted by Puzz3D:
    Total income for all of Japan = 26626
    Total borders for all provinces = 244
    Average per border = 109

    Since Sado has no land borders you could make 109 a base income for all provinces. This is close to the existing minimum income of 112 for Awajii. If desired, making the base value larger would reduce the difference in income between provinces.

    total income - total provinces * base = amount to be scaled by number of borders
    26626 - 60 * 109 = 20086

    amount/total borders = income per border
    20086/244 = 82

    province income = borders * 82 + 109

    The richest province would be Shinano with an income of 929.

    average income = average borders * income per border + 109 = (244/60) * 82 + 109 = 442
    The above calculation is towards the right direction. Local variation and cross reference with historical reality should also be present IMO.

    A variant of the above result can be inputed for playtesting(?)

    Also the effects of rich provinces concentration (and the defensibility of that) need to be taken into account in income distribution as the above calculation is an estimation based on averages and does not (to my understanding) account for such local effects (that might deviate the results from the averages).

    Originally posted by Puzz3D:
    Using the topographic method:

    Hida = 519
    Dewa = 273
    Mutsu = 519

    Under the topograhic system:

    1. Musashi 601 + Shimosa 437 + Hitachi 355 = 1393
    2. Dewa 273 + Mutsu 519 + Echigo 519 = 1311
    3. Hizen 273 + Chikugo 437 + Chikuzen 437 = 1147

    Under the beta 8 incomes they are:

    1. Musashi 1185 + Shimosa 537 + Hitachi 1149 = 2871
    2. Dewa 741 + Mutsu 1110 + Echigo 723 = 2574
    3. Hizen 760 + Chikugo 594 + Chikuzen 566 = 1920
    It definitely looks right


    Many Thanks

    Noir
    Last edited by Noir; 04-26-2007 at 16:25.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Ahhh nuts. Oh well. Can I ask, is there a way just to unpack it and replace all the required files without using an installer?

    Thanks,

    LA

  6. #66

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by [GG]Lord Ashram
    Ahhh nuts. Oh well. Can I ask, is there a way just to unpack it and replace all the required files without using an installer?
    I looked for the unpacked files, but can't find them anywhere on the disk drive. However, they are definitely somewhere on the drive.

    The mod won't work anyway unless you install it to an unmodified mtw/vi v2.01.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


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  7. #67
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Why would you want to unpack it, Lord Ashram?

    The files are unpacked to a temporary folder which is deleted after the install.
    This folder is either (temporarily) located in "Windows/Temp" or "Documents and Settings/your account/temp". You would have to unzip and then ignore the second install window while you find the folder and copy it to somewhere else. Then abort the installer.

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  8. #68

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir
    Also the effects of rich provinces concentration (and the defensibility of that) need to be taken into account in income distribution as the above calculation is an estimation based on averages and does not (to my understanding) account for such local effects (that might deviate the results from the averages).
    Defensability is inversely related to the number of bordering provinces which is the idea behind relating income to the number of borders. This doesn't take into account rivers which are highly defensable.

    The provinces are listed left to right from 01 to 60, so we can see how much income areas of the map will provide by dividing it into say 10 sections of 6 provinces each.

    Topographic system:
    Section 1 (01 to 06) 19 borders = 2212
    Section 2 (07 to 12) 21 borders = 2376
    Section 3 (13 to 18) 22 borders = 2458
    Section 4 (19 to 24) 23 borders = 2540
    Section 5 (25 to 30) 28 borders = 2950
    Section 6 (31 to 36) 32 borders = 3278
    Section 7 (37 to 42) 28 borders = 2950
    Section 8 (43 to 48) 27 borders = 2868
    Section 9 (49 to 54) 24 borders = 1968
    Section 10 (55 to 60) 20 borders = 2294

    There is definitley a tapering off of income at each end of the map.
    There is an increase in income over the fatter part of the map from sections 5 to 8.
    Section 6, the richest, includes Yamato, Yamashiro, Iga, Ise, Wakasa and Omi.

    Dropping the first and last 3 provinces, we can get a set of 9 samples that fall between the previous set.

    Topographic system:
    Section 1.5 (04 to 09) 22 borders = 2458
    Section 2.5 (10 to 15) 19 borders = 2212
    Section 3.5 (16 to 21) 24 borders = 2622
    Section 4.5 (22 to 27) 25 borders = 2704
    Section 5.5 (28 to 33) 29 borders = 3032
    Section 6.5 (34 to 39) 32 borders = 3278
    Section 7.5 (40 to 45) 28 borders = 2950
    Section 8.5 (46 to 51) 26 borders = 2786
    Section 9.5 (52 to 57) 20 borders = 2294

    Section 6.5, the richest, includes Ise, Wakasa, Omi, Owari, Mino and Echizen.

    Dividing the map in 3rds gives:

    Topographic system:
    Section 1 (01 to 20) 69 borders = 8162
    Section 2 (21 to 40) 95 borders = 10050
    Section 3 (41 to 60) 80 borders = 8820

    Beta 8 system:
    Section 1 (01 to 20) = 7491
    Section 2 (21 to 40) = 7936
    Section 3 (41 to 60) = 10975

    Dividing the map in half gives:

    Topographic system:
    Section 1 (01 to 30) 113 borders = 12536
    Section 2 (31 to 60) 131 borders = 14012

    Beta 8 system:
    Section 1 (01 to 30) = 10518
    Section 2 (31 to 60) = 15884
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 04-26-2007 at 22:23.

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  9. #69
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    just a quick note, the Kanto Plains was the richest region in Japan
    dont hamstring history too much.

    left on auto run on my original setup the area does not generate more than 50% campaign winners
    (i do not know what it does at the moment - would require testing
    B.
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    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Originally posted by Puzz3D
    Defensability is inversely related to the number of bordering provinces which is the idea behind relating income to the number of borders. This doesn't take into account rivers which are highly defensable.
    It also does not take into account provinces that give clear high ground to the defenders like for example Shinano. The number of borders accounts IMO for "invasibility" and to territorial robustness - that is the holder has an advantage if he holds 50% of bordering provinces of an internal province like Shinano (as he can "cover" his territories with a single stack there). His advantage however is turned to a disadvantage if he holds apprx less than 50% of the bordering provinces as now he is susceptible to attack from way more than one directions/factions. In the first case economical territorial robustness is ensured and in the second it is uneconomical and even risky.

    Originally posted by Barocca
    left on auto run on my original setup the area does not generate more than 50% campaign winners
    My original concern was not so much for the AI factions but for the player (there is a clear line of conquest that leads to victory hence predictability), although i've seen a fair set of AI winners coming from holding Tohoku (Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo) and then the Kanto.

    Originally posted by Puzz3D
    There is definitely a tapering off of income at each end of the map.
    There is an increase in income over the fatter part of the map from sections 5 to 8.
    Which is what i meant by local effects. Concentration of rich provinces in a patch at the fat part of the map is potentially condemning factions at the two ends, and thus again gives a "winning" spot. An alternative is after the initial redistribution based on borders, to create income nuclei (represented by a single province) in every distinct geographical department so that a growing power from any point has equal chances to develop. I say "represented by a single province" and i furthemore suggest that these are not at edges so they can be more openly contested by neighbouring factions.

    Essentially this reminds me of the difference between average mechanical stress and true stress whithin a solid prism subject to a tensile (pulling) force F. In theory stress = F/A, force over the prism's cross sectional area. This implies a uniform distribution across the section as well as longitudinally and it is true for a perfectly uniform and homogenious elastic body.

    However in reality the true stress distribution is altered by tiny imperfections whithin the material as microcracks that account for local stress concentrations. These may be so large as to give premature failures by the way.

    In our case, i think the calculation based on borders does not account for the geometric shape of the map (essentially the spatial distribution and relationship between the borders), so after redistributing incomes based on it, creating other blobbing/stagnating points remains as a possibility.

    So, if Hida/Shinano/Mino/Kozuke/Shimotsuke come as the richest (as they share the most borders) they may get the wealth with a "not-so wealthy province" in between them to avoid blobbing winning points.

    Similarly Kinki (Central Japan), Chugoku (Hiroshima area/peninsula), Shikoku and Kyushu (southern most islands - western most as we see the map) may be worked in the same principle.

    Originally posted by Barocca
    the Kanto Plains was the richest region in Japan
    dont hamstring history too much.
    Indeed the Kanto (mainly Musashi/Shimosa/Hitachi/Sagami?) was the richest part with kinki (Yamashiro--Ise-Owari-Mino-Kawachi) being second.

    Tohoku however, was historically a backwater place - the genius of Nagao Kagetora aka Uesugi Kenshin was responsible for transforming Echigo into a productive and commercially active province.

    Many Thanks

    Noir
    Last edited by Noir; 04-26-2007 at 23:45.

  11. #71
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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  12. #72
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    geography and climate article at wiki
    worth a read






    BTW - i have no objections to you guys coming up with some new numbers for income from various provinces

    cheers
    B.
    Last edited by barocca; 04-27-2007 at 11:25.
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    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir
    In our case, i think the calculation based on borders does not account for the geometric shape of the map (essentially the spatial distribution and relationship between the borders), so after redistributing incomes based on it, creating other blobbing/stagnating points remains as a possibility.
    I think it does account for the relationship of the borders. The income is lowest at the ends of the ellipsoid where it's safeset to operate. Along the neck, it accounts for the narrow "front" where forces can be concentrated. In the fat part of the map, it accounts for the need to maintain strong forces in all of the occupied provinces. The fat part will provide an economic advantage if you can control enough of it, but initially that's difficult to accomplish. Even after one clan dominates the center there arel still two fronts to defend against two different factions.

    I think the differential in province income will have to be adjusted based on testing. The differential can be adjusted by changing the size of the base income. Of course, you could do the same thing with an historical distribution of province income. The system used in beta 8 may work fine if the differential is decreased.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noir
    So, if Hida/Shinano/Mino/Kozuke/Shimotsuke come as the richest (as they share the most borders) they may get the wealth with a "not-so wealthy province" in between them to avoid blobbing winning points.
    Under beta 8 those 5 provinces have 3169 initial income. Under the topographic system they have 3671.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir
    Indeed the Kanto (mainly Musashi/Shimosa/Hitachi/Sagami?) was the richest part with kinki (Yamashiro--Ise-Owari-Mino-Kawachi) being second.
    Musashi/Shimosa/Hitachi/Sagami

    beta 8 = 3707
    topographic = 1748

    Yamashiro--Ise-Owari-Mino-Kawachi

    beta 8 = 3188
    topographic = 2759

    So an empirical adjustment of the beta 8 system would be more historical, and may work ok if the differential in province incomes is reduced.

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  14. #74
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    The topographic approach where the number of borders is related to income is promising. We just have to make sure that the income doesn't decrease in respect to beta_8. I think the lowest base income for a province should be 200, instead of 110 or what we have now.

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  15. #75
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    the values in beta 8 come from Shogun, as close a translation as i could get under normal tax levels anyway,

    While i dont really care i was wondering if before we go adjusting province income can someone tell me why we need to?
    The winds that blows -
    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Originally posted by Puzz3D
    I think it does account for the relationship of the borders. The income is lowest at the ends of the ellipsoid where it's safeset to operate. Along the neck, it accounts for the narrow "front" where forces can be concentrated. In the fat part of the map, it accounts for the need to maintain strong forces in all of the occupied provinces. The fat part will provide an economic advantage if you can control enough of it, but initially that's difficult to accomplish. Even after one clan dominates the center there arel still two fronts to defend against two different factions.
    The accounting is indirect, to my understanding. There is no parameter in the calculation that i can see that inputs that in the distribution (the locus of the provinces, border interelationship) - the dependence is directly on the number of borbers as far as i can see (please correct me if i'm wrong). The shape of the map provides a further parameter to my understanding.

    It would work perfectly if the map was a circle and provinces equal area compartments whitihn it; the ones with equal number of border would be equidistant from the centre, stepping from the ones with the most borders (centre) to the ones with less (eventually adjacent the circumference).

    If we now "squash" the circle to the ellispoid the fat part may provide superiority to the point that the ends stagnate - so them despite being safe they cannot produce a winner - the absolute income values/number of factions able to survive/defensibility/maintenance costs-and so spare troops available for invasion, also come into it.

    This is why i said that playtesting may adjust the initial distribution based on averages and also that province "altering" (one rich one decent etc or one rich two decent etc) of strong income points at the fat part of the map and at the ends will make for a more interesting game, imo.

    What you describe for the whole of the map (safe operation province = low income, high income province = territorial vulnerability) will be happening in a micrography at each geographical area is in a sort of a fractal way if you wish, that is they will be micro-environments that will comply to this rule, as well as the whole map.

    Playtesting is needed in any case, and i volunteer for doing so.

    Many Thanks

    Noir

  17. #77

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Originally posted by Barocca
    the values in beta 8 come from Shogun, as close a translation as i could get under normal tax levels anyway,

    While i dont really care i was wondering if before we go adjusting province income can someone tell me why we need to?
    Today 13:26


    Originally posted by Noir
    My original concern was not so much for the AI factions but for the player (there is a clear line of conquest that leads to victory hence predictability), although i've seen a fair set of AI winners coming from holding Tohoku (Dewa/Mutsu/Echigo) and then the Kanto.
    I started the whole thing i'm afraid - the campaign plays well, there are however cookie cutter strategies for becoming Shogun. I mention about them in almost all the above posts. The idea is, much like Puzz3D is mentioning that a more equal chance for any point of the map is given for victory and that there isn't a "standard" way to conquer a map.

    Many Thanks

    Noir

  18. #78
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    i think any set of incomes per province will give some factions advantages and some penalties,
    In short
    it's not up to me,
    but i would not bother changing anything except adding something to the lowest income provinces (and even then i would think carefully)
    B.
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    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul
    The topographic approach where the number of borders is related to income is promising. We just have to make sure that the income doesn't decrease in respect to beta_8. I think the lowest base income for a province should be 200, instead of 110 or what we have now.
    It doesn't decrease.

    Total income for all Japan:
    beta 8 = 26402
    topographic = 26548

    Minimum income:
    beta 8 = 112 in Awajii
    topographic = 109 in Sado

    Maximum income:
    beta 8 = 1202 in Owari
    topographic = 959 in Shinano

    What's different is the differential between the north and the south:
    The northern half of the map in beta 8 has 51% more income than the southern half.
    With the tomoprahic system the northern half has 12% more income than the southern half.

    And, the differential between the richest and the poorest province is less in the topographic system.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 04-27-2007 at 14:45.

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  20. #80

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    i think any set of incomes per province will give some factions advantages and some penalties,
    I don't agree with that. There is a mathematical solution which will balance all factions chances, but it would probably take a lot of work to find it. However, improving upon the economic balance of beta 8 wouldn't be difficult.

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  21. #81

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Originally posted by Puzz3D
    What's different is the differential between the north and the south:
    The northern half of the map in beta 8 has 51% more income than the southern half.
    With the tomoprahic system the northern half has 12% more income than the southern half.

    And, the differential between the richest and the poorest province is less in the topographic system.
    It sounds/feels towards the right direction for setting out more equal winning conditions for all factions/areas.

    Originally posted by Puzz3D
    I don't agree with that. There is a mathematical solution which will balance all factions chances, but it would probably take a lot of work to find it. However, improving upon the economic balance of beta 8 wouldn't be difficult.
    Agreed - the reason i posted indicating the concentrated provinces in my earlier posts on the matter would be to do the balancing with as little disturbance of the rest as possible.

    I also believe that there is an (approximate) mathematical solution (or solutions), but it'll be quite complex to determine (as Puzz3D hinted), i feel.

    Just for the sake of conversing, I doubt that it'll be an exact solution, as the map and faction starting positions are lacking symmetry. There is also the matter of conquest pacing, during a campaign (equivalent to tempo in chess, i guess) that will influence as an additional parameter.

    Many Thanks

    Noir
    Last edited by Noir; 04-27-2007 at 17:24.

  22. #82
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzz3D
    However, improving upon the economic balance of beta 8 wouldn't be difficult.
    can you work out which provinces were historically richer?

    some provinces are poor because of terrain, which should be roughly represented by the defensible nature of their maps,

    (later today i will make a thread about battle maps and explain a bit better, i have found some inconsistencies, some we thought the game uses, it doesn't...ever

    i would not like a map with too much equalised, then playing different factions would not mean much,
    if they all have the same chance of winning then which clans are challenging to play?

    currently if you dont have much money you have to be aggressive,
    (i usually take out another clan right away)
    if you have tons of money you can afford to wait
    The winds that blows -
    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  23. #83

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    some provinces are poor because of terrain, which should be roughly represented by the defensible nature of their maps,
    I distributed the maps by their terrain type into the appropriate border map sets.


    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    i would not like a map with too much equalised, then playing different factions would not mean much,
    if they all have the same chance of winning then which clans are challenging to play?
    Presumably they would all be challenging to play. The complaint was that it was too easy to win with some of the clans. I'm also not sure that the game is winnable with every clan.


    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    currently if you dont have much money you have to be aggressive,
    (i usually take out another clan right away)
    if you have tons of money you can afford to wait
    I would rather that a combination of both strategies have to be used for every clan.

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  24. #84
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    sorry,
    what i meant is that poor provinces (in original Shogun) generally had terrian that was earier to defend. So the payoff for less money was easier terrain.
    But in Shogun the maps were named and we cannot do that in medieval,

    medieval uses terrain groups and there is a limit on terrain groups,
    i am still testing them,
    but i can confirm neither desert maps not steppe maps can be used by campaign,
    that leaves about 60 combinations, and i am thinking only 25 to 30 will actually work, (it seems that reversals wont work)
    I have a ton more testing, then i will let you know what works and what wont.

    the interesting thing to remember is that what is actually IN the map need have no correlation to what the startpos file declares the terrain to be.

    meaning we can call the map flattohillscoastal,
    but what terrain the map actually has is entirely up to us.


    The thing is that i dont think the mod will be enhanced by trying to level out all the clans for winnability,
    i think the fun and the challenge is some clans are hard to win.

    remember some people were finding Iron Man on very hard, Easy.
    The winds that blows -
    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    sorry,
    what i meant is that poor provinces (in original Shogun) generally had terrian that was earier to defend. So the payoff for less money was easier terrain.
    But in Shogun the maps were named and we cannot do that in medieval,
    The proper strategy is to take the rich provinces not the poor ones. For instance, as Takeda I started with Hida and Shinano, and by 1552 have captured Kai, Musashi, Kozuke and Shinano. I don't go after provinces like Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Totomi, Suruga and Izo. Uesugi is the most powerful clan because it has Echigo, Dewa, Mutsu, Shimotsuke and also the lesser Etchu, Noto and Sado on the northern end, and used that wealth to launch an amphibious attack capturing Tajima, Inaba, Harima, Bize, Awajii and Iyo. Uesugi has ships everywhere. No other clan has ships. Uesugi's 7 northern provinces produce 7922 income and are defended by 3692 men while its second block of 6 provinces around Harima produce 2731 income and are defended by 2424 men. Clearly that second block of provinces is much less cost efficient than the primary block on the northern end. My 5 Takeda clan provinces produce 7278 income and are defended by 3490 men. I achieved that by disbanding all non-heir hatamoto units. Oda has 14 central provinces: Totomi, Mikawa, Owari, Mino, Echizen, Wakasa, Omi, Iga, Ise, Kii, Yamato, Kawachi, Yamashiro and Tamba producing 7829 income and defended by 2983 men. The Otomo clan has all 10 of the southern provinces: Satsuma, Osumi, Higo, Hizen, Hyuga, Chikugo, Chikuzen, Buzen, Bungo and Nagato producing 7603 income and defended by 4127 men. Satomi with Hitachi, Shimosa and Kazusa producing 4569 income and defended by 1938 men is the only other important clan remaining. They face a civil war against 595 rebels on this turn. If Uesugi is able to secure Hitachi, that will potentially add 2383 to its income making the most powerful clan substantially more powerful. Hitachi alone is nearly worth the entire second block of 6 Uesugi provinces.

    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    the interesting thing to remember is that what is actually IN the map need have no correlation to what the startpos file declares the terrain to be.

    meaning we can call the map flattohillscoastal,
    but what terrain the map actually has is entirely up to us.
    The maps have been categorized according to their terrain.


    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    The thing is that i dont think the mod will be enhanced by trying to level out all the clans for winnability,
    i think the fun and the challenge is some clans are hard to win.
    There is clearly too much economic advantage on the northern part of the map.


    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    remember some people were finding Iron Man on very hard, Easy.
    That's the problem the suggestions are meant to address.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 04-28-2007 at 14:20.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  26. #86

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Originally posted by Puzz3D
    The proper strategy is to take the rich provinces not the poor ones. For instance, as Takeda I started with Hida and Shinano, and by 1552 have captured Kai, Musashi, Kozuke and Shinano. I don't go after provinces like Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Totomi, Suruga and Izo. Uesugi is the most powerful clan because it has Echigo, Dewa, Mutsu, Shimotsuke and also the lesser Etchu, Noto and Sado on the northern end, and used that wealth to launch an amphibious attack capturing Tajima, Inaba, Harima, Bize, Awajii and Iyo. Uesugi has ships everywhere. No other clan has ships. Uesugi's 7 northern provinces produce 7922 income and are defended by 3692 men while its second block of 6 provinces around Harima produce 2731 income and are defended by 2424 men. Clearly that second block of provinces is much less cost efficient than the primary block on the northern end. My 5 Takeda clan provinces produce 7278 income and are defended by 3490 men. I achieved that by disbanding all non-heir hatamoto units. Oda has 14 central provinces: Totomi, Mikawa, Owari, Mino, Echizen, Wakasa, Omi, Iga, Ise, Kii, Yamato, Kawachi, Yamashiro and Tamba producing 7829 income and defended by 2983 men. The Otomo clan has all 10 of the southern provinces: Satsuma, Osumi, Higo, Hizen, Hyuga, Chikugo, Chikuzen, Buzen, Bungo and Nagato producing 7603 income and defended by 4127 men. Satomi with Hitachi, Shimosa and Kazusa producing 4569 income and defended by 1938 men is the only other important clan remaining. They face a civil war against 595 rebels on this turn. If Uesugi is able to secure Hitachi, that will potentially add 2383 to its income making the most powerful clan substantially more powerful. Hitachi alone is nearly worth the entire second block of 6 Uesugi provinces.
    This is exactly describing the problem i wanted to bring about.

    Many Thanks

    Noir

  27. #87
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    are we saying there is too much money floating around?

    On this map you can see the original shogun values you will notice places like awa and izu have there income increased for the mod, most of the others,
    on normal difficulty and Without enhancements should be within +/- 20 of the original shogun values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzz3D
    If Uesugi is able to secure Hitachi, that will potentially add 2383 to its income
    Hitachi on normal difficulty with NO upgrades starts the game earning only 620 per turn. Just like Shogun did.

    Thats one thing to remember, you guys are counting enhanced land values, with trading posts, mines, Governors accumen boosts, Kings accumen boosts, happiness boosts (happiness boosts production) and all the whistles and bellls,
    once you try to start balancing the improved values the whole kettle of fish gets all screwy.

    How do you allow for Governors accumen in the equation? How do you allow for happiness?
    Do i force all kings to famous and lock their stats??
    (I allowed for the base trading item values when i balanced the incomes.)


    If you cut all the new clans out and only leave the original clans in then the balance is fine, with each clan having the same chance of winning.


    too much money, which brings us back to too much money.
    Accumen did not exist in shogun, it does in medieval and if hitachi is generating 2000+koku, then something needs to be done.
    Farming upgrades - edit the income coloumn to read 20,40,60,90 should do the trick.
    Halve all the mines income,
    Copper become 50,100
    Silver becomes 75,150
    Gold becomes 100,200
    Salt becomes 25,50
    Also Citadel Upgrade, ADD This entry to the income column for Castles
    0,0,0,0,0,0,100
    That last gives a small boost when you get to the end of the building chain.


    Uesugi start with Sado, so they start as a seafaring faction, if i dont give them the shipbuilder at the beginning they get killed off every time.


    Mori, currently start with a superhero, his unit has a start boost of +1 valour and a visible V&V +5 valour, and a command +4 (gives +2 valour) and a hidden V&V boost of +5 valour
    - giving Mori an unstoppable unit of yari sams with 13 valour...yet Mori lose constantly in the 28 clan campaign.



    The Mod, in my opinion, cannot be balanced for 28 active clans,
    the original 7 active clans with 2 provinces each - it is balanced,
    add another 3 to 4 more active clans, maybe we can balance it ... we can juggle provinces.

    28 active Clans??? ...no, too much stress, too many variables like
    heroes, king, accumen, happiness...


    but we can fix the too much money problem.
    The winds that blows -
    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    my only requst for the next version is that you make a fully incorperate working mongol faction with units heirs the works.

    i would love to finaly play them in a build mode VS the samuari warlords.

    you could also make it a differant era.

    like what you done with the MP and the SP.

    you can add an extra ERA the Mongol Invasion..

    but instead of pillaging for koku to get reinforcements you can begin buidling and creating your own units/reinforcements.

    we could also add a few extra factions. from the previous era. for a lil challenge. thats it i'll be happy once i can play the mongols

    you know the one thing i don't like about the history of all the total wars. the mongols are not looked apon as a great project yet they will do the alexander add on for the rome total war.

    it just doesn't make sence. you would also think creative assembly would have included the mongol faction with the viking expansion.. but as a earlier period of play then the high.. and there not even playbale in the late wtf is up with that.

    i would also like to add when it came ot how much one conquered..
    the golden conquer south russia,japan,china,india, ran into a bottle of bad achol and died from posioning. (much better way to go then by a elephant.)

    the alexander the great only conquerered. persia/babylon-kept going east ran into a huge ass elephant then poof . there goes his legacy.

    so far i have been disapoints time and time again with the total war project i havn't played MTW2 yet but i heard it was jsut like RTW egine so im not ina hury to go try it. my friend lars from denmark told me that hte golden horde is playable this time around. but ona egine my computer can't handle go figure (same thing happen tome when i baught and still have elder scrolls oblvion)

    i still enjoy the MTW egine...

    just as the mods keep coming.

    @the modders of samuari warlords.

    i really like your mod. i hope your next version will include a fully incorperated mongol faction. with more then one faction to duke it out with then the hojo. and that you can build an empire instead of pillaging.

    later all
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

  29. #89
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    As Promised here is a thread explaing how the map groups work
    cheers,
    B.



    just tested as per release 8
    Hitachi
    normal taxes, no governor, no happiness or other bonuses

    unimproved = 620koku
    20% = 739koku (should be 744)
    40% = 871koku (should be 868)
    60% = 990koku (should be 992)
    100% = 1241 koku (should be 1240)

    so i think i got it pretty close.

    Like i said above the Medieval Engine has all sorts of bonuses to add and Shogun did not,
    rather than try and fiddle all the bonuses i went with the base province incomes as they were in Shogun (well as close as i could get)
    Last edited by barocca; 04-29-2007 at 23:40.
    The winds that blows -
    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  30. #90

    Default Re: Samurai Warlords beta 8

    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    Like i said above the Medieval Engine has all sorts of bonuses to add and Shogun did not,
    rather than try and fiddle all the bonuses i went with the base province incomes as they were in Shogun (well as close as i could get)
    I think it could be addressed to some extent by altering the base incomes of the provinces which could more or less represent the quality of the land for farming. Additionally, an historical aspect is also present in the ecomomic potential of the bonuses.

    A generic problem of the game's design is that the magnitude of most bonuses is excessive, and seems to be an underlying concept in the design. The boost due to command stars and battlefield upgrades are good examples of this excess. For instance, it only takes 3 battlefield upgrades for a YS to beat a WM.

    Hitachi starts at 620, but Uesugi has it at 2757 income in my current campaign with a 3 acumen governor. In contrast, Shinano starts at 541, but the highest I can get it with maxed out improvements is 1211 income with a 4 acumen governor. I've seen Mutsu as high as 2966 in this campaign.

    I've gotten to year 1688 in this Takeda campaign. I've been able to act as spoiler to Uesugi, but could not knock him out. He still has Noto, Sado, Etchu, Hida, Etchigo, Dewa, Mutsu, and Hitachi. Over this period from 1553 to 1688, Otomo has taken all of the southern provinces up to and including Echizen, Mino, Mikawa, and is building up along that front. They now have 6000 men on the Echizen, Mino, Mikawa line. Uesugi has a total of 5300 men, and Takeda has a total of 7200 men occuping Totomi, Suruga, Shinano, Kozuke, Kai, Sagami, Izo, Musashi, Shimosa and Kazusa. Unless Otomo somehow self destructs, he will win. As Takeda, I just made an alliance with Otomo so hopefully they will attack Uesugi in Hida, and I might be able to get some of the northern provinces. I can't go to war against Otomo because Uesugi is at war with me and refused a cease fire repeatedly. Interestingly Kaga is still occupied by Hoganji since the beginning. No one wants it.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 04-30-2007 at 17:46.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

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