EB Ruined My Greeks

[Sohwen]

I was under the impression that Koinon Hellenon represented a weak coalition of GREEKS...But why is it so Spartan oriented? Why would the Level 1 system of government for Athens be the Spartan Agoge Klerouchy?

I love EB, and I appreciate the countless hours the modders have worked to bring it to us, so I hope I do not sound like a jerk.

[Brightblade]

yea let's make the greeks totally gimp, get wiped out in 2 turns, and ignore the fact that sparta always took hegemony during alliances with athens historically against exterior foes, then u can enjoy your greeks better!

[Sohwen]

As I understand it, Brightblade, some people have a problem with the Koinon Hellenon being too ahistorically strong in EB...Perhaps you've found the solution?

But my main question was: Why would the level 1 system of government of Athens be the Spartan Agoge Klerouchy? Did the Athenians adopt the Spartan agoge system?

[Ower]

for the KH, there is quite little diference between goverment 1 and 2,
1- is the spartan tipe, 2- is the "athenian" tipe

[Zim]

I don't think the type 1 government is supposed to be the "standard" govt. type for the KH. It's just meant to enable the recruiting of certain unique units and represent areas with some Spartan influence(Crete can build one, for instance, although I don't think they get any unique units out of it yet).

I think that Type 2 govts actually enable more units in most provinces where you have a choice, and offer better bonuses as well.

[hoom]

KH has Sparta as capital not Athens.
I believe it represents a historically short lasting, Sparta led confederation that included Athens so Sparta is capital & you can use the Spartan Agoge government.

With the Type 2 government, you can shift the dominant political type to Athenian & move capital there but the faction is intended to at least start out Sparta dominated.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Just as Zim45 said. For most other factions G1 is "homeland" while G2 "expansion, but this is NOT like this for KH.
For greeks G1 and G2 are equal and are just 2 alternatives greek city can follow.

[Foot]

I asked this question myself and the answer was quite simple and rather understandable. The gov1 for KH is the spartan agoge because of the way our gov system works. gov1 allows for the highest factional MIC level, which, given the militaristic history of the spartans, seemed most appropriate for them. In fact, the spartans in the koine are less influential than the other cities, as the gov2 rtepresents their style of government.

Basically it was a conceptual decision.

As for the strength, if the KH had stayed together it probably would have been quite strong, but internal bickering pushed it apart. We cannot represent that in RTW, so they stay together and continue to be powerful.

Foot

[Sohwen]

Thanks for responding, I understand now. I just thought system 1 was the standard government for your entire faction.

[Pelopidas]

Yes, it's important to remember that the Greeks were pretty strong.
Even the Romans weren't fool enought to fight all Greeks at a time...

The problem for the greeks was that for them, the best and greatest opponent was alweys the neighoubouring Greek cities...

The Chremonidan League was quite a power, it takes 10 years to the Makedon to beat them, by the siege of Athen, and with the backup of the Seleukids.
And...some Greeks leagues sided with the Makedonians.

I like Koinon Hellenon as they are in EB !

[Morte66]

Yes, it's important to remember that the Greeks were pretty strong.
Even the Romans weren't fool enought to fight all Greeks at a time...

The problem for the greeks was that for them, the best and greatest opponent was alweys the neighoubouring Greek cities...

Yeah. I was thinking this morning that whilst the Greeks (i.e. pagan greek-speaking peoples) were pretty respectable in war and commerce, and leaders in culture, they were dumb as rocks when it came to geopolitics. In all those hundreds of years from the beginnning of polis civilization to the Roman/Sassanid takeovers, they got together effectively for about ten years around Marathon/Salamis/Plataea and another dozen under Alexander. The rest of the time, they were more interested in fighting each other than their common enemies.

[Pelopidas]

They were never united under Alexander ^^
In 333, the Spartan king engage a fight against Alexander's regent.
And then, Sparta fought against a huge Makedon army + Greeks league, and was barely defeated.

And after all, Alexander was a Makedonian, not a Greek ( in the mind of this guys at this time...)

And during the Persian invasion, nearly half of the cities were on Xerxes side...

The greatest Greek unity achieved was, I think, the Chremonidan League, with Sparta, Athens and Rhodos in the same team...but such a power was too dangerous for the other Hellens, so they sided with Antigonos against them...

[PSYCHO V]

I asked this question myself and the answer was quite simple and rather understandable. The gov1 for KH is the spartan agoge because of the way our gov system works. gov1 allows for the highest factional MIC level, which, given the militaristic history of the spartans, seemed most appropriate for them. In fact, the spartans in the koine are less influential than the other cities...

Foot

But the fact remains that the Spartans shouldn't really wield any influence in EB's time frame, they were a provincial back water. They played little / no part other than a handful of battles in a futile attempt to defend themselves....before being relegated to a Roman fun / theme park.

It's unfortunate that EB's Hellenophiles couldn't resist including 'Spartan' material that harked back to the 'glory days' hundreds of years prior. It’s just ahistorical bias. eg. The glorified Spatan mercenary that is one of the mod's most richly decorated and elite units. Cool yes... clever / accurate..no.

my2bob

[Thaatu]

It's unfortunate that EB's Hellenophiles couldn't resist including 'Spartan' material that harked back to the 'glory days' hundreds of years prior. It’s just ahistorical bias. eg. The glorified Spatan mercenary that is one of the mod's most richly decorated and elite units. Cool yes... clever / accurate..no.

To my understanding, that glorified Spartan mercenary unit is a model/texture only and is not included in the actual game, other than in a minimod. I'm not sure why anyone would complain about that. Besides, Sparta has the same premise as Epirus. If they had avoided complete downfall, who knows what might have happened. Maybe they would've risen again.

[Laman]

One thing that might lessen the confusion (or possibly cause some) would be to have instead of I and II have Ia and Ib for the KH. Of course then people might just probably ask, where is II, I have I (a & b), III and IV but no II?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The team members who specialize on the Greeks felt that as a unit who now primarily works as mercenaries, from Syracuase to southern Italy to Crete to Egypt, we felt the way the Spartans are depicted is accurate. I'm here telling everyone that we in no way are trying to recreate classical spartans with the unit. They are hellenistic spartans (they exist in 272 in Sparta and fighting on Crete, and specifically perform well in the siege of Sparta, the year our mod starts) who spend most of their time as mercenaries (they are doing it in 272 alongside Areus on Crete) or fighting for Sparta. They can only be created in one province, by one faction, at their highest MIC level, and they cost a lot to field, and they have 100 men less than even the simplest pike unit - in other words they are not some sort of crazy elite unit. I just used one unit of decent pike (pezhetairoi - nothing special) on flat terrain with no bonuses or upgrades and shredded a unit of them (I lost 13 men, they lost all). And the pez were 50% cheaper to recruit. Actually, I just tried this out and defeated them with a single unit of levy phalanx (the crappiest pike unit in the game) on a flat battlefield (just barely won it though). They stink actually.

I doubt anyone who has ever played outside of Makedonian or Epeirote factions have ever fought against the unit on a battlefield even - that's how rare they are in the game usually. Again, the Greek historians and unit people on the team were and are in support of the unit without exception. They have a little sculpting on their cuirass and a different colored (but no pattern) trim on their cloak, but what else is so special about them? Their pilos helmet is incredibly simple. Their greaves are simple. They have pteryges and a shield with a lambda. Big deal. The regular hoplites are just about as nice. That's them on my sig banner, but without the design on their cuirass.

[Geoffrey S]

Personally I'd have preferred to see the Greek Cities represented as strong rebels, considering their fractured nature and the fact that there is no really decent way of realistically representing the precarious coalition.