Gaesatae way too overpowered

[Amenophis]

The problem is not so much the unit itself, but when the AI starts spamming them. It is not uncommon to see 10-15 units in a full stack. I am not sure what is the best way to handle the problem though. I thought about increasing their cost to cut down on their appeal, but it might do weird things to the AI since I am mid campaign. I am also thinking about tweaking the stats. Something about seeing a bunch of naked guys with 2 hit points just doesn't seem right.

[Foot]

Something about seeing a bunch of naked guys with 2 hit points just doesn't seem right.

Have you read their description. They drug themselves up to the eyeballs on pcp and then go into battle chanting war songs. There are accounts of one of these guys taking a javelin to the chest and just shrugging it off. 2hp is the only way to represent this

Foot

[Amenophis]

Have you read their description. They drug themselves up to the eyeballs on pcp and then go into battle chanting war songs. There are accounts of one of these guys taking a javelin to the chest and just shrugging it off. 2hp is the only way to represent this

Foot

I understand the reasoning behind the 2 hit points, but still think an unamoured man is going to be more susceptible to a fatal wound then one even wearing a simple pectoral plate, pcp or not. Since they are drugged out beserkers, maybe they should have a lower defence skill? More concerned with attack then defence? High defence skill plus 2 hit points makes for one incredibly tough unit.

Really my only problem with the unit is when the AI starts to spam them. Maybe they should be higher cost/maintenance to reflect their worth?

[antisocialmunky]

Well, I think their defense takes into account of the ferocity of their attack. Its hard to kill a naked guy if they're fighting wildly with a single minded purpose to pain you.

If you haven't tried already, throw slingers at them. They die spectacularly well to those guys like almost everything else that isn't insanely armoured. Two slinger bullets will take them down.

[Orb]

asm has a point, if you were looking at a drugged up lunatic, who you can't actually seem to hurt, you'd be more concerned about defence than attack.

They don't really need higher costs, they are actually not too hard to nail unless you're on hard, provided you use the correct strategies. They shouldn't be easy to take down. As a human, you are probably used to cakewalk AI. See this as a fun challenge: how to beat a ****load of gaesatae with a balanced stack.

[Fondor_Yards]

Yonk!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=58846

[Kull]

Capping human generals might make sense (though it's likely impossible to discriminate), but the AI has a bad tendency to toss it's general units into battle early on, and that makes them quite susceptible to early loss of the general, with subsequent morale hits and easier routing of the entire enemy army.

Personally I prefer a tougher opponent, and it's infrequent to encounter the "general-who-will-not-die", although certainly a fair number escape to fight again. And on one level it IS frustrating to defeat an enemy and then see him return to battle a turn or so later leading a massive force of newly recruited mercenaries. But there's a certain extra *something* about those battles, isn't there? I mean usually the AI army is led by just one more semi-faceless enemy family member. But fighting the same guy 2 or 3 times is a whole other story. It's almost personal. This guy escaped against all odds and he DARES to return and fight again? You can almost feel the adrenaline flowing. How can that be bad?

[The Errant]

Capping human generals might make sense (though it's likely impossible to discriminate), but the AI has a bad tendency to toss it's general units into battle early on, and that makes them quite susceptible to early loss of the general, with subsequent morale hits and easier routing of the entire enemy army.

Personally I prefer a tougher opponent, and it's infrequent to encounter the "general-who-will-not-die", although certainly a fair number escape to fight again. And on one level it IS frustrating to defeat an enemy and then see him return to battle a turn or so later leading a massive force of newly recruited mercenaries. But there's a certain extra *something* about those battles, isn't there? I mean usually the AI army is led by just one more semi-faceless enemy family member. But fighting the same guy 2 or 3 times is a whole other story. It's almost personal. This guy escaped against all odds and he DARES to return and fight again? You can almost feel the adrenaline flowing. How can that be bad?

It's frustrating cause the AI dosen't feel the loss. If an army of the human player gets wiped out, you feel the loss. Worst case you loose two or three cities depending on the protection of that single army and general.
For the AI it's like: OK. I lost. No big deal. I still got a ton of money and since the first assault didn't work I'll just try another one. Only this time I'll do with two stacks of elites and regulars and one merc. stack.
Historically when the AS lost it's field army against the Romans their whole empire started falling apart. Here it's like. No big deal we will just make a new one.
I know the AI generals are often couragous to the point of foolishness. But I've also seen the AI adapt it's armies to better face up to human players. One of my stacks was almost all skirmisher cavalry. After beating a couple stacks with them the AI brought a stack of phalangites, slingers and those bolt throwing warmachines. My poor cavalty got it's ass handed to it in that battle. Same if you use lots of skirmishers the AI will eventually throw a more cavalry heavy army against you.
While far from being competent it's apparent that the AI has atleast faint glimmer of intelligence.
I'm not asking you to make the AI generals into wimps. I'm asking you to make them human instead of supermen. Who knows the AI might actually start to use it's generals in a more sensible way than as early shock units.

Compared to AI generals Gaesatae are a walk in the park. Drugged up and religious zealots they may be, but they still have only 2 HP compared to the AI Superman general 6+ HP their weak. Best part is the bastards on foot. Archers, slingers, JavCav and HA can get on their exposed side easily and hurt them before the Gaesatae hit you. The generals take an insane amount of pounding, and when they finally rout, it's a one turn reprieve unless you manage to kill him. Even then the AI will get a new candidate for adoption and the whole circus starts all over again.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Personally I prefer a tougher opponent, and it's infrequent to encounter the "general-who-will-not-die", although certainly a fair number escape to fight again. And on one level it IS frustrating to defeat an enemy and then see him return to battle a turn or so later leading a massive force of newly recruited mercenaries. But there's a certain extra *something* about those battles, isn't there? I mean usually the AI army is led by just one more semi-faceless enemy family member. But fighting the same guy 2 or 3 times is a whole other story. It's almost personal. This guy escaped against all odds and he DARES to return and fight again? You can almost feel the adrenaline flowing. How can that be bad?

I agree. Those AI generals who won't die are both annoying and a cool chance of a kind of role play. I remember one Parthian guy named "Zoroaster of Somewhere" (ironic since he was blessed by the gods - 7-8 command, tons of HP, his armies would never break). This guy would attack me with an army every year, often twice a year. A situation where I amagined my "Parthicus" general had a personal conflict with him and a mutual respect. I eventually chased him down with a horse archer army when he was away from his army. It was more of an assassination than a death in battle.

I just wish returning guys wouldn't fully replenish their bodyguards withing a turn.

[zonks32]

I dont care how high on drugs they are, their is only so much the body can take, blood loss for starters, you lose a limb, you are going to bleed to death very soon if there is no treatment, or any vital organ hit, muscles destroyed from any weapon will not work no matter how much the brain wants it to, even being stunned by a projectile.
I dont mind a challenge, but when a group of naked men run across a bridge and my men launch 400-600 javelins into them, plus the volleys of arrows, there will be substantial losses.
There may have been accounts of men pulling javelins from their chest and fighting on, but they would have been rare.
I think 2hp is fair, very high morale and attack, but armour on a naked man ?, I think the 2hp is enough to simulate their tolerance to pain.

[Watchman]

There's actually only about two things people actually die of - enough direct damage to a sufficiently vital organ (the brain and the heart, and the latter may be conditional), and going into system shock. The latter is the most common, at least as battle damage goes, and is brought about by the body's regulatory system going haywire due to trauma and/or blood loss. How much of the former varies wildly by individual; even perfectly normal folks can sometimes keep going for quite a while with quite grievous wounds while others are down for the count from comparatively minor damage. The latter is fairly constant as the circulatory system tends to go bonkers if too large a portion of blood is lost.

The whole point in pain-killing combat drugs - an effect also achievable, if unreliably, through the natural hormonal secretions of the brain (endorphine makes morphine look wimpy) and/or suitable psychological conditions - is to circumvent most of the above by flatly cutting off the sensory feed that tells the system it even has suffered such damage in the first place. If the body simply doesn't know it has suffered such injuries it will try to keep going as if nothing had happened, until the point where enough blood loss and damage is accumulated that this becomes impossible and the system just shuts down. But without the normal feedback that brings about the shock state, this can take quite a while.

Now, of course, broken bones and such are still broken bones and will limit the functionality of the body if they're in the right place (say, limbs), regardless of whether the body deigns to notice the matter; but people with their sense of pain shut off can nonetheless do some very abnormal things simply by the virtue of flatly ignoring the "damage report" feedback that makes normal folks stop doing stupid and harmful things and curl into a screaming fetal ball instead.

It's not likely to be very healthy ignoring the warning signals like that of course, but that's a cold comfort to the guy whose sword in your gut you're not even noticing and instead cut off his head. And, really, many if not most such injuries would be lethal down the road anyway, so there's a certain amount of sense behind figuring out a way to keep going and (hopefully) killing regardless - if the spear wound in your chest will kill you sooner or later anyway, isn't it better you remain funtional long enough to kill the guy who delivered it and maybe some of his mates to boot rather than drop on the spot ? Certainly seems to fit the rather uncompromising views the Celts seem to have held about combat, death and the afterlife too.

Armour 5 for the Gaesatae is incidentally more or less in line with the rest of the Celtic swordsmen. Those "Northern" types have helmets similar to the Gaesataes' plus shirts and trousers, and get a 5 out of it. The "Southern" and Briton types have just trousers and get something like 3 from that, and I don't quite think lime-spiked hair counts for too much. I figure it partly represents their ability to duck behind their large shields for cover, and in the case of the guys with good helmets the fact the part that's mainly visible and reachable behind the shield is well protected by solid iron.

[Kull]

I dont care how high on drugs they are, their is only so much the body can take, blood loss for starters, you lose a limb, you are going to bleed to death very soon if there is no treatment, or any vital organ hit, muscles destroyed from any weapon will not work no matter how much the brain wants it to, even being stunned by a projectile.
I dont mind a challenge, but when a group of naked men run across a bridge and my men launch 400-600 javelins into them, plus the volleys of arrows, there will be substantial losses.
There may have been accounts of men pulling javelins from their chest and fighting on, but they would have been rare.
I think 2hp is fair, very high morale and attack, but armour on a naked man ?, I think the 2hp is enough to simulate their tolerance to pain.

Reality check. They aren't "naked men running across a bridge". These guys have good sized shields and helmets, which mean that proper defensive techniques will leave about as much flesh exposed to a javelin as would almost any other unit out there. EB didn't make these guys up. They existed and were renowned for ferocity on the battlefield. If nakedness was that much of an achilles heel, they'd have disappeared with nary a mention in the historical record.

[bovi]

I dont mind a challenge, but when a group of naked men run across a bridge and my men launch 400-600 javelins into them, plus the volleys of arrows, there will be substantial losses.

They die when you put 400-600 javelins into them. You exaggerate. Also, try sending those javelins in from their righthand side or rear. Massive carnage.

Originally Posted by bovi
I believe their armour is not merely from their helmet, but an abstraction for being able to shrug off missiles due to the drugs.

Isn't that what the 2hp is for?

Yes. That too. With no armour, they would go splat from a single volley from their unshielded sides, whether they had 2 or 5 hitpoints.

[Rilder]

I dont care how high on drugs they are, their is only so much the body can take, blood loss for starters, you lose a limb, you are going to bleed to death very soon if there is no treatment, or any vital organ hit, muscles destroyed from any weapon will not work no matter how much the brain wants it to, even being stunned by a projectile.
.

Sure he'll bleed to death but it probably wouldn't kill him in time to kill several enemies.

I think the armor is for small injuries like a slash across the gut, a finger sliced off and such and 2HP is for how well they can sustain a normally fatal hit, like an arm cut off or a javelin in the chest. The moral simulated that they are in this drugged bloodlust who wouldn't run away if they were alone.

Besides if they'd lose there sword-arm they could of just used there other arm.

[Centurion Varricus]

Just a comment on the overpowerd Generals.

I also found generals escaping when seemingly trapped. I found that my problem was that I was engaging in combat in defensive mode. I assume that this means that as the units hold their formation there are gaps through which the general can escape between the units. I resolved this by taking off the defensive mode and the units soon surrounded the enemy (general or other) and the fighting to the death symbol would appear.

I would like to offer a suggestion for debate.
if the generals bodyguard had increased defensive capabilities but reduced attack capabilities so as to act more like a bodyguard and not an elite attacking unit. Elite units, by contrast to have higher attack ratings but lower defensive attributes. I would imagine then that elite units would be more highly valued and only used to swing battles and comitted at the last.
I know its out of the time frame but think of Xerxes and his Immortals at thermopolye (spelling) Elite units were usually sent in at the end. If the risk of losing your elite unit means you keep them until you have to use them, then I think this is quite realistic. I know there are exceptions to the Xerxes situation, Alexander the Great lead from the front but it was a great personal risk to himself and his plans of empire.

Your thoughts please

[Frostwulf]

"The Roman commanders advanced their javelin throwers (velites), who moved ahead of the infantry and discharged their missiles, the Gaesatae were soon in difficulties. The shield used by the Celts does not cover the whole body, and so the tall stature of these naked warriors made the missiles all the more likely to find their mark. Yet if the Gaesatae were carrying the usual Celtic oval shield, they were surely well protected?
The Gaesatae found themselves subject to a murderous barrage of javelins while being unable to close with their adversaries. Some of them broke ranks, and rushed forward to engage the enemy, throwing away their lives as they ran forward and thus made themselves a more vulnerable target. The others wre pushed back on the Insubres, who were behind their ranks. They were thrown into disorder. Unable to get near the Roman ranks for hand to hand combat, cut to pieces by the rain of missiles, the Gaesatae were finally broken". -Peter B. Ellis /Battle of Telamon 224 BC.

This is what I was getting at about the lack of armor, and being in melee combat wouldnt be much different. This is the only thing I could find of actual combat involving the Gaesatae. Where can I find more information on these guys including the battles,formation, the drugs they used and etc?

[Dayve]

I have to agree with the original poster.

The other day, one of my forts in the mountain passes in northern Italy was captured by the Aediu, and i sent a full legion of Polybian troops to retake it... 4 Velites, 4 hastati, 4 principes, 4 triarii, 2 cavalry and a general... Not a good general, he had no command stars, but he also had no traits that would make him a bad general and a +1 morale retinue, armourer.

Anyway, i took two rams... I battered down the gate and the wall next to it and send two units of hastati into each... There were 6 units of gaesatae behind the walls and some lugoae... The gaesatae engaged and the hastati were routing no less than 30 seconds later. I sent in the principes in the same way, 2 into the gate and two into the broken down wall, and had my velites pound the gaesatae with all of their javelins from behind, which caused very few casualties amongst them. 10 minutes later, the principes routed and i sent back in the reformed hastati, who lasted longer this time due to the gaesatae being exhausted.

I rallied the principes and sent them in with the hastati, and sent in my triarii, all 4 units, through the side wall... They managed to break 1 unit of gaesatae and i attacked the unit of gaesatae at the gate from behind with some triarii while i used others to block the passage to the gate by lining them up on defensive mode... Even though surrounded and fighting my elite troops the gaesatae were taking casualties of a rate of like a or 2 per minute and it was taking way too long, so i sent my general and two cavalry in to attack them from behind in the hopes of breaking them, but then my triarii holding the passes to the gate were routed and more gaesatae came through to attack my horsies... The equittes routed very quickly and left the field... I couldn't pull my general away otherwise my other units would get massacred like the rest, and eventually he died in battle and my army routed.

At the end i sent a apy to see what damage i had done, and was amazed to see that they still had 4 full units of gaesatae, 1 just under half strength and one just over half strength...

An entire legion and a dead general for 1 unit of gaesatae behind a wall.

If they aren't overpowered, then Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman.

[mAIOR]

Wich dificulty are you playing?? also, sending four units of weak hastati against 6 of Gaesatae is suicide. and with such defenses, anything short of 3 Battering Rams is not enough.
Regarding drugs, I bet those voluntaries were not given extasy or LSD or even cocain with gunpowder in it (energetic pain inhibiter drugs). And I talked in another thread of a fungus in Cereals wich caused alucinations and beastly behavior closelly conected to werewolves and vampires. I trully believe the drug they used would be similar probably fungus related because of the effects (if you read reports on "werewolves" you'll see people shot them and they still kept going with wounds that could kill a normal men. howver, if you don't feel pain and your adrenaline is rushing, your body wont go to shock so you'll have more staying power). Take also the Zulu war. There are British reports of Zulus fighting with arms crushed by bullets like they were normal.
If you want to really test the effect of drugs, don't go for the numbing ones.

Cheers...

[Fondor_Yards]

I have to agree with the original poster.

The other day, one of my forts in the mountain passes in northern Italy was captured by the Aediu, and i sent a full legion of Polybian troops to retake it... 4 Velites, 4 hastati, 4 principes, 4 triarii, 2 cavalry and a general... Not a good general, he had no command stars, but he also had no traits that would make him a bad general and a +1 morale retinue, armourer.

Anyway, i took two rams... I battered down the gate and the wall next to it and send two units of hastati into each... There were 6 units of gaesatae behind the walls and some lugoae... The gaesatae engaged and the hastati were routing no less than 30 seconds later. I sent in the principes in the same way, 2 into the gate and two into the broken down wall, and had my velites pound the gaesatae with all of their javelins from behind, which caused very few casualties amongst them. 10 minutes later, the principes routed and i sent back in the reformed hastati, who lasted longer this time due to the gaesatae being exhausted.

I rallied the principes and sent them in with the hastati, and sent in my triarii, all 4 units, through the side wall... They managed to break 1 unit of gaesatae and i attacked the unit of gaesatae at the gate from behind with some triarii while i used others to block the passage to the gate by lining them up on defensive mode... Even though surrounded and fighting my elite troops the gaesatae were taking casualties of a rate of like a or 2 per minute and it was taking way too long, so i sent my general and two cavalry in to attack them from behind in the hopes of breaking them, but then my triarii holding the passes to the gate were routed and more gaesatae came through to attack my horsies... The equittes routed very quickly and left the field... I couldn't pull my general away otherwise my other units would get massacred like the rest, and eventually he died in battle and my army routed.

At the end i sent a apy to see what damage i had done, and was amazed to see that they still had 4 full units of gaesatae, 1 just under half strength and one just over half strength...

An entire legion and a dead general for 1 unit of gaesatae behind a wall.

If they aren't overpowered, then Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman.

And thats why you don't send 4 lone hastati to fight 6 units of Gaesatae, they won't stand a chance. Then sending 4 principes in after seeing all their friends sent fleeing to kill the same men, still outnumbered, into a defended breach is suicide as well. What you should have done is made more breechs, more then they could defend, and simply swarm in from all angles.

[mucky305]

My mother had a friend that was a cop in Glendale, Ca who related the following story. He was involved with pursuing a suspect who had killed his mother by setting her on fire. They cornered the man in an abandoned building and several of the officers pursued inside the building. The man was armed with a shotgun and shot one of the officers. While he had some of the officers pinned, some others circled around and came up behind him. As he turned with shotgun in hand, the officers fired 9 times into his body, seeing the man wasn't falling, one of the officers shot the man in the head with a 9mm Beretta. Assuming the guy was done for, the officer held fire. The man dropped the gun, rubbed his nose, put his hand to the back of his head, probably feeling that his brain was hanging out of it, looked at his bloody hand and looked at the officers. At that point, he stated, "guess you got me with that one" and fell to the ground dead. PCP was found in his system. Now, this guy was a skinny drug addict, so I can only imagine what a 6'2" 225 llbs p.o'ed Celt that has trained his whole life for war could do on a chemical cocktail. *shiver*

[SaFe]

Now, this guy was a skinny drug addict, so I can only imagine what a 6'2" 225 llbs p.o'ed Celt that has trained his whole life for war could do on a chemical cocktail. *shiver*

I will not say anything about the stats, i think they are slightly overpowered, but the team had enough discussion about stats even during the time i was a member, so i think they decided it right.
BUT we should stop thinking that Celts were on average this height, even the good trained and probably well fed warrior elite of the celts.

Swamp and mooor corpses in today's Germany and Denmark tell us a other story about the size of celts, germanics and romans.

It is often noted, that germanics were taller than celts and those were taller than romans.
If the average germanic men reached 175cm - 178 cm (archaelogical findings) and the average roman soldier (not citizen, even here we talk about roman soldiers in the pre-imperial time era, before the most roman units were made of mercenaries from foreign lands) reached ca. 160cm - 165cm, we can guess how tall a typical male celt had grown.
Something between the two numbers i guess.
But 6'2 is definately a super-size man and not the average.
Sure exceptions existed, like for example Teutobod, War-chieftain of the Teutones and numerous others, but we should still stick to the average height of warriors during this time.

Note:
I once had dicussion with Alin and other team members about different height-sizes of units.
Has this feature been dropped?