The only real problem I have with the Gaesatae is that realisticly some of them would die from their wounds after the battle, but RTW can't handle that. Elephants have the same problem but it's rare that someone demands that they be nerfed.
The only real problem I have with the Gaesatae is that realisticly some of them would die from their wounds after the battle, but RTW can't handle that. Elephants have the same problem but it's rare that someone demands that they be nerfed.
Strictly speaking the Solduri with their suicide pacts ought to suffer some excess after-battle casualties as well, but, well...
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
I really would hesitate to call them beserkers in the traditional sense. The beserker-gang in history was typically a teutonic thing(with some exceptions). From what I have read the Gaesatae didnt behave like beserkers at all. The beserker works himself into a frenzy(biting shield,howling etc.) then charges into combat. The Gaesatae are very well ordered and disciplined, the beserkers are neither of those. Also the Gaesatae fought with big numbers, historically you rarely find that many beserkers, let alone fighting together. As far as the projectile situation, as you said its a dumb object. The missile may not have fear but the thrower might even though he may be further away. In hand to hand combat you have humans feinting and other tactics, not just a dumb object falling out of the sky.The human in melee combat has more opportunities to inflict damage and death.Originally Posted by Watchman
I still state that if the individual that was drugged would be worse off in combat due to his numbed state.Originally Posted by mAIOR
"A UK television programme in 2004 tested the possible use of fly agaric and alcohol by training a healthy volunteer in the use of Viking weapons, then evaluating his performance under the influence of fly agaric or alcohol compared to no influence. It was shown that use of fly agaric or alcohol severely reduced his fighting ability, and the tentative conclusion drawn was that berserk state was achieved psychologically; otherwise, berserkers would have been too easy to kill. Of course, this does not take into account the mindset that the berserker likely would have attempted to place himself in." -wikipedia. Granted this is most likely not the stuff the Gaesatae used, but other studies have been done with similar results(on reflexes and etc.)
Still looking for this guys. I had to edit this by saying my view on the Gaesatae is just from this limited information. This is why Im looking for more information on this.Originally Posted by Frostwulf
Last edited by Frostwulf; 04-25-2007 at 04:39.
Hi.Originally Posted by Frostwulf
The following story is not contemporary to the period that occupy us, but I couldn`t help to remember the examples of an entire regiment fighting under the effects of drugs. In Chile during the pacific war in 1879-1883 between a Peru-Bolivian alliance against Chile, there was a gruesome battle called the assault on the Morro of Arica.
It`s an entrentched eminence, a steep cliff or Cape that rises 130m over the sea, and that in such times was fortified with a series of pits, pillbox and extended trenches, as well as the first extensive use of electric minefields in this war (not sure if the first in the world at all).
A regular practice in those days in the chilean army, was to drink chupilca, a mixed and energetic drink that comprised toasted flour and red wine. You can use sugar if you want to (and tastes pretty nice too). In specially merrier or solemn times, ppl drank this mix, not with red wine, but with 50º distilled grape alcohol (aguardiente or flamingwater).
Since this was a special time (the 4ºth line regiment had the mission to lead the main assault and to penetrate the enemy`s defences, so, it was the one that was to take the most horrific casualties of the entire operation), the people prepared their breakfast drink not with wine, but with the distilled alcohol.
But the officers, knowing that the task was a bloddy one, with huge cassualties, mixed their toasted flour with a generous amount of gunpowder.
After taking the beakfast, people started marching to the hill, and not hearing the orders that claimed to respect the time on which the regiment`s assault shoud begin, charged in before the hour planned, with little regard to eventual minefields and/or killing zones created by the conjunction of fields of fire of several companies on a single zone.
In the attack, people of the 4th attacked with a zeal unheard of, not hearing their officers`s commands, and using first the rifle, after they ran out of ammunitions, the bayonet, and after it bended, the very own rifle as a club. It was horrible, and terrible atrocities were made...
After having massacred the detachment defending the lower forts, the gunpowder house blew up because of maybe a fire or because a defeated defender tried to make a last act of defense. Many were blown to pieces. One voice among the multitude shouted "al morro muchachos!" (to the cliff, boys!), and without complying to the shouts of the officers, the entire regiment swept forward wtihout any organization whatsoever, more disorlerly if possible than in the previous assault, and ran straight across a minefield.
People were blown up into the air 2 or 3 meters, then crashed to the ground with barley a scratch but with all their clothes in rags, and continued on climbing. Some had horrific cuts, hands cut in the previous engagement, feets ripped appart with the explosion, legs broken pecause of the falls, ribs broken because of the concussion shrapnel rock from the mine explosions, and even with such hurts and injuries, people fought with an enormous zeal, ignoring "their officer`s orders on discipline, nor god commands on mercy".
That regiment entered that specific battle with 941 able men.
The cassualties of the entire operation were 474, most (if not all) belonging to that regiment. They didn`t had 2HP.
Conclusion: Don`t do drugs, your dick may be severed, and you might not even notice it.
Cheers!
PS: Hope I wasn`t very boring, just wanted to illustrate a modern massive use of drugs in battle.
Last edited by -Praetor-; 04-25-2007 at 06:00.
good one K Raso
especially the ending...![]()
Very interesting story Raso. As for me, I don't have a problem with Gaetasae, unless they're a full stack of it. In my opinion, if you don't have an army that stands up to a full Gaesatae stack (slinger/skirmisher army, which I find too easy then), then you are supposed to lose, historically and/or gameplay wise. Do we always have to win? A loss is good way to bring us back to earth and add some realism to a campaign.
And if I have one of those inferior and annoying generals who are essentially worthless (Ah! The generals. They are numerous but not good for much) I just martirize him/them and take away as much enemies as I can in the process.
Not to mention that such "breach assault" situations are where tough elite infantry like Gaesatae really shine. Outflanking next to impossible and numbers mainly good as "attrition absorbers" (and irrelevant once the unit breaks), of course they will cheerfully eat up normal troops, burp rudely and ask for more. And their "frighten_foot" attribute only makes the hapless enemy infantry break that much sooner, as if the stark disparity in attack, defence and lethality factors wasn't enough.
Originally Posted by Frostwulf
Good job missing the point, which was not the specific nature and operating principle of the "fanatic" shock infantry in question but rather the general principle and phenomenom.
"Make the sacrifice" shock troops haven't been an all that unusual thing in history, actually. Although the exact techniques used rather varied. Anyway, the Gaesatae work by a combination of applied chemistry and sheer bad attitude, whereas if I've understood correctly the Viking bärsärkagång was at least partially a neurological issue. In any case I've read the Vikings at least typically formed their various crazed warriors into small shock units which were employed as "forlorn hopes" to lead assaults and take down enemy leaders.The beserker-gang in history was typically a teutonic thing(with some exceptions). From what I have read the Gaesatae didnt behave like beserkers at all. The beserker works himself into a frenzy(biting shield,howling etc.) then charges into combat. The Gaesatae are very well ordered and disciplined, the beserkers are neither of those. Also the Gaesatae fought with big numbers, historically you rarely find that many beserkers, let alone fighting together.
Such crazed loons are way less intimidating from a distance, especially to a skirmisher who knows he won't have to tackle them mano y mano and can most likely just outrun them if need be anyway. The Roman velites seem to have had no particular problems turning the Gaesatae at Telamon into pincushions anyway.As far as the projectile situation, as you said its a dumb object. The missile may not have fear but the thrower might even though he may be further away.
I take it you're not very familiar with the basic principles involved ? Having a psychological edge over your opponent, particularly through fear, is a major advantage in hand-to-hand combat. Moreover there is, as it was taught to me, the fact that generally you can parry about three successive blows, tops; after that you'll either need to break contact or launch an effective attack of your own, forcing the other guy onto the defensive, because else your chances of being able to keep up with the other guy's successive attacks will start falling fast.In hand to hand combat you have humans feinting and other tactics, not just a dumb object falling out of the sky.The human in melee combat has more opportunities to inflict damage and death.
Now, it's a given fanatical maniacs on combat drugs like the Gaesatae aren't going to be particularly intimidated by about anything (short of an elephant anyway), but they're going to be damn scary to face especially for troops who already have some issues with the ferocious and intimidating Celtic way of doing battle. And being skilled swordsmen unconcerned with pain, fear and fatigue they're going to be real whirlwinds on the attack, and the Celtic longsword was doubtless a most unpleasant device to be at the receiving end of at the best of times. Good luck trying to get them to even pay much attention at your feeble attempts at landing in a blow (especially given their large Celtic infantry shields) - they'll probably quite happily take a down the road lethal wound in exchange of slicing your head off anyway, and not even notice it...
Alcohol is, whatwasitnow, a depressant. While it was actually fairly often used to relieve fear, officially or not, its effects on the nervous system are notoriously debilating.I still state that if the individual that was drugged would be worse off in combat due to his numbed state.
"A UK television programme in 2004 tested the possible use of fly agaric and alcohol by training a healthy volunteer in the use of Viking weapons, then evaluating his performance under the influence of fly agaric or alcohol compared to no influence. It was shown that use of fly agaric or alcohol severely reduced his fighting ability, and the tentative conclusion drawn was that berserk state was achieved psychologically; otherwise, berserkers would have been too easy to kill. Of course, this does not take into account the mindset that the berserker likely would have attempted to place himself in." -wikipedia. Granted this is most likely not the stuff the Gaesatae used, but other studies have been done with similar results(on reflexes and etc.)
It's not like there was any shortage of toxic substances available from Momma Nature anyway. Fungi and many plants produce one kind or another, as do many reptiles (although most forms of snake venom are so distinctly hotile in their qualities they can be safely counted out), and a lot of fairly venomous chemicals tend to result from all kinds of human activity and industry. The Celts may have simply stumbled upon a combination which had the desired pain-inhibiting and psychoactive effects (and given the warrior culture's psychological conditioning for warfare, I doubt if all that much chemical assistance was required to produce the sort of excessive bravery of the Gaesatae...) that may well have had some quite nasty side effects down the road and whose recipe was later lost. It's not like we knew what exactly "Greek fire" was made of either, and that was used by numerous high cultures that actually bothered writing such stuff down.
And given the Will Die For Glory basic attitude of these guys, I sincerely doubt if they were very concerned with any long-term side effects. The buggers probably planned to "live fast, die young, and leave a good-looking corpse" from the start anyway, judging by what I've gathered of the Celtic concept of afterlife and the mindset of some of their other elite warrior groups.
I rather doubt if it was that pesky one. By what I know of it the hallucinogenic states it brought tended to be rather disabling, and people busy scampering around on all fours, drooling a lot and with most of their higher brain functions turned off don't really sound like prime shock trooper material. Didn't keep those afflicted from thinking they had committed all kinds of horrible deeds in their delirium of course, and it looked pretty darn disturbing, and given how these stories tended to grow in telling...Originally Posted by mAIOR
Last edited by Watchman; 04-25-2007 at 22:41.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Actually, that fungi also caused bestial behavior and imagine if they found a way to make it only cause bestial behavior and remove the allucinations and inability to move. If you read the suposed encounters with "werewolves" they talk about them fighting with wounds that would kill a normal men... it's like you said, mother nature has a miriad of ways to make us feel invulnerable. They only needed one. I talked about that particular fungi as an example and, cause more "recent" reports add up to it.Originally Posted by Watchman
Cheers...
Watchman I shouldnt have lumped your quote in with Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, he did say there were beserkers.
I was talking about true beserkers being rare, not "Make the sacrifice" shock troops.Originally Posted by Watchman
I would agree with what your saying, except I cant find any historical documents on the Gaesatae and I havent seen anyone but me put any historical reference to them. The Viking part I agree with from what I read, the only thing I would add is that they were infrequently used as royal bodyguards(king Harald Fairhair).Originally Posted by Watchman
Im familiar with it, it does happen in sports as well such as MMA, Boxing and other Martial sports. In some of these sports, especially if you face someone like Bob Sapp, you can see fear in their eyes. But regardless the person may start of with a disadvantage due to fear but the training takes over and they can overcome which has happened many times. From my understanding soldiers who are well trained can over come this because "their training takes over" -Andy McNab SAS.Originally Posted by Watchman
The Gaesatae may be good on the attack but they didnt even do to well against javelins. If they cant defend against javelins how do you expect them to avoid constant thrusting and slashing from swords or spears? Not all the soldiers are going to be paralyzed with fear, they will fight back. Depending on the soldiers these attempts are hardly feeble, a thrust to the heart a cut off head and other places are for the most part an instant kill. The Gaesatae were dieing to javelins! They were not just waltzing through them. Again if these things falling from the sky were killing them, then competent soldiers would have a better chance of killing them. As far as fear is concerned, the Gaesatae did break when they were pushed back.Originally Posted by Watchman
Now for the drugs. Most drugs now are much stronger now because of the technology we have, everything now is enhanced. The drugs the Gaesatae were raw and primitive, therefore most likely not nearly as effective as has been claimed on these forums. Yes they could help over come fear, but they most likely will not make you immune from pain. If it did think of novacane and trying to talk with that in your mouth! If you want to say adrenaline that I can understand up to a point.
mAIOR I agree with what your saying, though I never heard that about the Zulus doing that. Im not disagreeing with you, I just never heard that before.Originally Posted by mAIOR
AGAIN Ill ask. Where are you guys getting the information on the drugs they take? What battles did they participate in and who wrote about it? I already heard enough about peoples thoughts, now how about the facts to back this up.
The word "Gaesatae" is Celtic for "Spearmen". This implies that the Geasatae warbands could have fought either in a phalanx or that the spear was their primary weapon instead of the sword.
The Gaesatae Order was most likely founded in the 4th Century BC in Gaul. The Gaesatae offered their services to other Celtic tribes or anyone who needed men to fight. The Gaesatae are most renowned for their service for the Celts in the Po Valley, such as the Boii and Insubre tribes. They provided around 15,000 men at the Battle of Telamon and fought alongside the Insubres at the Battle of Clastidium. After the Gallic War of 225 BC to 223 BC, the Gaesatae fade away into history. They most likely had warbands in Gaul during the Gallic War of 225 BC to 223 BC, and took part in local tribal wars until the military order died out in the mid 2nd Century BC.
It might be more productive to ask the EB guys about that.Originally Posted by Frostwulf
To a degree, yes. But I would rather imagine few people had much opportunity to train for the kind of psychological offensive the sorts of Geasatae put out, coupled with the detail most of the Mediterranean cultures at least found the nudity alone jarring. The Celts and other "barbarians" themselves may have had less issues with the actual nakedness, but on the other hand would have been much more familiar with its symbolic and magical aspects amounting to more or less the same end result.Im familiar with it, it does happen in sports as well such as MMA, Boxing and other Martial sports. In some of these sports, especially if you face someone like Bob Sapp, you can see fear in their eyes. But regardless the person may start of with a disadvantage due to fear but the training takes over and they can overcome which has happened many times. From my understanding soldiers who are well trained can over come this because "their training takes over" -Andy McNab SAS.
Plus of course the nekkid nutjobs themselves can be counted to not be particularly overawed by anything, so even if they're not necessarily able to thoroughly intimidate particularly crack troops at the very least that'll just be even then.
Basic difference: javelins are not that easy to parry with your sword or similar, and reasonably close-order infantry will have to rely on shields and armour to stop such projectiles as they won't have much room to dodge. Anything that get through or around those, hurts you.The Gaesatae may be good on the attack but they didnt even do to well against javelins. If they cant defend against javelins how do you expect them to avoid constant thrusting and slashing from swords or spears?
In hand-to-hand combat the very fact you're also attacking puts a limit on the other guy's effective attacks - if nothing else your weapon will simply be getting in the way, and there exists the very real possibility you may literally "do unto him before he does unto you", that is, manage to land a telling enough blow while his attack is still "in process". And yes, this sort of thing can lead to "mutual slaying", as the Japanese called it.
It's the difference between being subjected to an archer's arrows, and exchanging blows with that archer up close. Surely the difference in the dynamics is blatantly obvious ?
I don't think anyone claimed they were invulnerable supermen. The point is just that unlike troops in a normal state of mind they cared rather little about their injuries, and instead kept going until their whole system gave out. Unconcern with odds and casualties doesn't even require anything more than sheer bravado and lack of concern with death (something which, judging by some other elite formations like the Solduri, the Celts weren't half bad at conditioning for), rank stubbornness, and so on as perfectly possible for more normal troops.Not all the soldiers are going to be paralyzed with fear, they will fight back. Depending on the soldiers these attempts are hardly feeble, a thrust to the heart a cut off head and other places are for the most part an instant kill. The Gaesatae were dieing to javelins! They were not just waltzing through them.
Pretty much anyone cracks eventually. Humans are built that way, and I personally suspect the somewhat over-exuberant mindset their funny concotion and "hyping up" put them into rendered the Gaesatae somewhat more volatile in this regard than fanatical "elite guard" type units and similar groups.As far as fear is concerned, the Gaesatae did break when they were pushed back.
I'd actually say they'd get pretty far on just relatively mild psychoactives in any case, so long as those allowed them to put themselves in a state of mind where they believed themselves immune to such things. Autosuggestion, basically. People have literally gnawed their own arms off (or down to the bone anyway) in sufficiently deranged states of mind and only fainted of the blood loss; I wouldn't be surprised if the prime effect of the Gaesataes' war-drug was to put them in a suitably, uh, altered mental state to allow assorted personal and group psychological tricks to produce the results, with some helpful chemical side support. I understand the Celts were fairly good at applying certain kinds of intentionally produced group-hysteria effects.Now for the drugs. Most drugs now are much stronger now because of the technology we have, everything now is enhanced. The drugs the Gaesatae were raw and primitive, therefore most likely not nearly as effective as has been claimed on these forums. Yes they could help over come fear, but they most likely will not make you immune from pain. If it did think of novacane and trying to talk with that in your mouth! If you want to say adrenaline that I can understand up to a point.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Well, about the drugs, I already told that it was my opinion on what kind of drugs they took. I never read anyhting telling they took this kind of drug or that. I'm just a fan of Fungi :)Originally Posted by Frostwulf
Battles I only heard about Tellamon but I'm sure EB team members will answer this (I'd also like to know more about these dudes).
Cheers...
Fighting back - not all are going to tremble in fear, but a *lot* of people would, fighting these men for the first time. The Gaesatae would also be attacking all this time, and threatening the enemy, not just leaving their guard open for enemies to stab them.The Gaesatae may be good on the attack but they didnt even do to well against javelins. If they cant defend against javelins how do you expect them to avoid constant thrusting and slashing from swords or spears? Not all the soldiers are going to be paralyzed with fear, they will fight back. Depending on the soldiers these attempts are hardly feeble, a thrust to the heart a cut off head and other places are for the most part an instant kill. The Gaesatae were dieing to javelins! They were not just waltzing through them. Again if these things falling from the sky were killing them, then competent soldiers would have a better chance of killing them. As far as fear is concerned, the Gaesatae did break when they were pushed back.
Now for the drugs. Most drugs now are much stronger now because of the technology we have, everything now is enhanced. The drugs the Gaesatae were raw and primitive, therefore most likely not nearly as effective as has been claimed on these forums. Yes they could help over come fear, but they most likely will not make you immune from pain. If it did think of novacane and trying to talk with that in your mouth! If you want to say adrenaline that I can understand up to a point.
'Instant kills' - according to a friend who would know, cutting through someone's neck (especially if you can't really get at it, thanks to an enormous shield) or stabbing through the heart is very, very difficult, I doubt the majority of soldiers would have the training to do this. The Gaesatae probably have the training to put their shield in the way of direct thrusts at the heart, as well.
Men with javelins are not necessarily incompetent soldiers. Remember that the Gaesatae were not the only ones who would have to parry blows in close combat, and the average man would be more concerned with staying alive than in inflicting difficult to achieve single-hit-kill blows.
There is, supposedly, a hypnotist who can teach patients to self-hypnotise so that they can undergo surgery with non-medical (Black&Decker drill) equipment without feeling any pain whatsoever. There are also reports from the Falklands conflict that some Argentinians through adrenaline alone managed to keep going *until* they were shot in the head, despite the fact that they should have been dead or decrepit. These are both without psychoactive drugs, with them, presumably, this could be amplified.Now for the drugs. Most drugs now are much stronger now because of the technology we have, everything now is enhanced. The drugs the Gaesatae were raw and primitive, therefore most likely not nearly as effective as has been claimed on these forums. Yes they could help over come fear, but they most likely will not make you immune from pain. If it did think of novacane and trying to talk with that in your mouth! If you want to say adrenaline that I can understand up to a point.
You'll have to badger Psycho for the sources, I'm not one of the historians.
'My intelligence is not just insulted, it's looking for revenge with a gun and no mercy. ' - Frogbeastegg
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