Uber Peasants?

[Moosehead115]

I just did some tests for something that has been bothering me in fights in my campaigns, tests were britain vs. scotland, on VH (custom battle) me being britain, single click on opposing platoon.

Peasant vs. spear militia
Ran it three times, first time my general died within a short period of time, second time theirs did, third time both died in quick succession. every battle resulted in an enemy rout with my platoon taking approx 1/3-1/2 losses (huge unit sizes)

Peasant vs. Town Militia
Same as above.

So... all my stacks running around with militia are going to be disbanded and replaced with peasant mobs. What gives? it does appear that the unit stats are quite ... off. or another bug is influencing the unit performance dramaticailly (the anti-blob clipping?) this was conducted on grassy plain, in the open, and the units had good cohesion throughout the fights so its hard to see how...

comments?

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

this is an old problem, i used them in RTW to screen/protect my archers and arty from flanking and cav, they seem to be just as useful in this version, also good to have them engage elites to allow you to charge from behind with your cav ect...

[Moosehead115]

also just ran

Peasants vs. Billmen and Peasants vs. militia billmen

they beat the militia, and just barely lose to the regulars.

[IrishArmenian]

Moosehead, those results do not surprise me.

[Prodigal]

Well I haven't run any definitive tests, but was rather suprised that 3 spear units, & 3 archer units, got held & pretty much decimated by a single peasant unit. That was m/m btw...

[PaulTa]

The real difference is that most of those crappy militia type units do get a bonus against cavalry, which makes all the difference in most of my campaigns.

[Kraxis]

Still, the stats indicate that Peasants should not be doing much damage. Perhaps killing 20 Militia.

Also Town Militia don't get a bonus to figthing cavalry, so I suppose they are officially the worst unit now.

[Von Nanega]

I have had peasants hold pretty well against me. I have charged them, hacked them, shot them up and they hold. If only my shiny, arrogant Imperial Stormtrooppers of Axe Death had such staying power. But soon, hordes of unarmored killer peasants will sally forth from my castles to sweep all before them! My General will whip them forward into glory!

[CBR]

Still, the stats indicate that Peasants should not be doing much damage. Perhaps killing 20 Militia.

Yes except CA seems to have messed up the battle engine. Now animations are the thing and actual stats appear to be meaningless for some units.


CBR

[Kraxis]

Hmmm... I do remember that the masses of Pilgrims I used to weaken the Danish troops in Stockholm were pretty determined to win. They suffered huge losses to the Danish general, but weakened him enough for my regulars to finish him off easily.

So perhaps a Pilgrim vs Peasant test is in order.

Off to do that.

[eefums]

a theory is that since their morale is so low they can have a chance to make your army chain route..that's the only thing i can think of.

[Slaists]

Yes, I have noticed the same thing: peasants versus spear militia with peasants feeling "victory is a definite possibility", until my general charged them in the back. It's surprising that the large shield militia yields does not seem to come into equation at all.

[Kraxis]

Yes except CA seems to have messed up the battle engine. Now animations are the thing and actual stats appear to be meaningless for some units.


CBR

Must be it...

I just ran through a considerable number of tests of Peasants vs Town Militia and then Peasants vs Sergeant Spearmen. Medium.

Well, the Peasants won every single battle with the Town Militia.
'v' indicates victory, Peasants are first.

v60 - 45
v71 - 34
v60 - 35
v70 - 40
v81 - 45

Average:
68 - 40
Peasants win by an average of 28 soldiers each time.

Peasants vs Sergeants
85 - 81v
v56 - 43
v94 - 81
70 - 71v
70 - 66v

Average:
75 - 68
Peasants win again, yet this time I would say that it is in fact even. The differences are too small.

So Peasants = Sergeant Spearmen in melee.

I plan on doing a reverse where I'm facing the Peasants. But that will have to wait.

[CBR]

Try Peasant archers v militia spears or Longbowmen v Armoured sgts


CBR

[Musashi]

Peasants win vs spears because peasants are (crappy) shock infantry. Basically the game treats them like a (really bad) unit of swordsmen, and swords beat spears.

Spearmen aren't meant to do well vs other infantry in melee... they're for absorbing cavalry charges, and that's it.

Also, I don't believe the game factors shields into melee calculations... They're only factored in as a defense against missiles from the front.

[Slaists]

Peasants win vs spears because peasants are (crappy) shock infantry. Basically the game treats them like a (really bad) unit of swordsmen, and swords beat spears.

Spearmen aren't meant to do well vs other infantry in melee... they're for absorbing cavalry charges, and that's it.

Well, at least in the animation, peasants use a pitchfork... Are pitchforks supposed to beat spears? Anyway, seems like an easily moddable thing: change the weapon type to "spear" for pitchfork.

[CBR]

And Peasant archers just have knives.


CBR

[Whacker]

I seem to recall an "issue" that I had like this similiar to the OP's issue, which I think I wrote off as a bug, forgetting that it's actually a "feature". My humble suggestion is that this begs for some kind of "alt-alt-attack" command, whereby we can hold a key and then click a single unit, then the group will all attack that single unit. I shall stick that in the "patch wishlist" thread.

[Kraxis]

Peasants win vs spears because peasants are (crappy) shock infantry. Basically the game treats them like a (really bad) unit of swordsmen, and swords beat spears.

Spearmen aren't meant to do well vs other infantry in melee... they're for absorbing cavalry charges, and that's it.

Also, I don't believe the game factors shields into melee calculations... They're only factored in as a defense against missiles from the front.

Town Militia doesn't get a bonus against cavalry... So they are busted up twice...

Town Militia has better equipment than Peasants and some training. They should be walking all over them... in time. Instead we see a clear Peasant victory.
And Sergeant Spearmen are pretty good spearmen, yet Peasants can match them.

Something is not right at all.

[phred]

Have you checked other factions' peasants?

I'm at work and can't check myself, but I distinctly remember not building Turkish peasants because their attack and defense stats are only 1, as opposed to English peasant stats which are much higher.

[Sir SillyDuck]

I havent noticed this on the field (VH), but I did notice peasant slaughtering Scottish Higlanders when they defended the walls against them. Mind you, my Highlanders were allready on the wall, not jumping inbetween the peasants) and had a bit or armor (light mail or leather). Now if peasants are shock troops, they shouldnt win from Highlanders, not in my book..

[Kraxis]

Have you checked other factions' peasants?

I'm at work and can't check myself, but I distinctly remember not building Turkish peasants because their attack and defense stats are only 1, as opposed to English peasant stats which are much higher.

The English Peasants are 3/4 stats, a long way from the 5/7 of the Town Militia.

But fair enough, I will try the Turkish peasants, which I summe has knives. But I don't think that will help much since the Peasant archers seem to be able to do the same.

[EDIT]
Nope... didn't make much of a difference.
The Turkish Peasants are indeed 1/1, yet they won with 105 kills to my 63 (I changed sides to see if the player might have something to do with it, apparently not).
In fact the Peasants matched my chargekills, despite the fact that the Town Militia should have dishing out more significantly.

I'm beginning wonder as well if the shield does have an impact on melee. But even with the loss of the shield the Town Militia should have bested the Turkish peasants (if not the English).

[Veresov]

I've seen numerically superior dismounted knights fight peasants on the walls with the peasants decimating the dismounted knights! WHen I ran the cursors over the units it was saying the peasants "were confident of victory".
WTF?

[makkyo]

I guess this goes into the patch wishlist....
I had to re-adjust my tactics to match these crazy peasants, treating them like more than "cannon fodder" as the game describes them. I still can't believe that I have to pay special attention to peasants.

[Sir SillyDuck]

Well, I guess.. The Seventh Samurai (and the Magnificent Seven, the American remake) teach us that in the end, the peasant wins..

[Barry Fitzgerald]

I think Peasants are too strong. I mean in RTW they routed pretty quick when faced with pro soldiers...here they are not bad at all...maybe they were too poor in rome, but this is the other end of the spectrum.

[Veresov]

Has anyone added the uber peasants to the bug list?

[Biggus Diccus]

The combat mechanics of this game need some serious reworking imho.

[grinningman]

Unit stats do make a difference as long as only peasants are fighting. I tested Moors peasants (1/1/1 at/def/ch) against English peasants (4/3/1), both with me as the English vs CPU Moors and vice versa, and the English peasants almost always won. E.g for me as the English vs CPU Moors:

English kills/Moors kills
w44/18
w65/26
w35/16
w39/23
w45/41
w51/36
w63/43
w41/27
w42/13
w64/45

vh difficulty, single click on the enemy, grassy plains.

Maybe something is wrong with the spearmen and town militia model animations? Maybe a similar problem to what makes the dismounted English footknights unable to attack cavalry once engaged?

During one of the tests I also saw the 'front-line only charge' bug. I saved a replay of it. I don't know if I can attach it here - PM me if you'd like me to email it to you.

[Zharatustra]

you can upload and link replays...?