A picture of how the UK has changed.

[InsaneApache]

Perusing the papers, as you do, I came across these two little gems.

A fireman is facing disciplinary action after plunging into a river to rescue a drowning woman.

Tam Brown, 42, is the subject of an internal investigation by Tayside Fire and Rescue because he breached safety rules during the rescue in the River Tay in Perth.

He spent eight minutes in the cold water and at one stage feared that he would be swept to his death. But after dragging the 20-year-old woman to safety he was told by his employer that he had acted improperly by risking his life.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1567322.ece

and then I read this.....

While he was a constable serving with the Cardiff City Police, Kenneth Farrow made a desperate and prolonged attempt to save the life of a drowning child, narrowly escaping with his own. He was not a strong swimmer and the circumstances were exceptionally hazardous.

He was on patrol during the early evening of June 21, 1948, when a group of people ran up to him in a state of alarm shouting that a child had fallen into the “Feeder” at Pembroke Terrace. The Feeder is an aquaduct supplying water from the River Taff to Cardiff Docks. It runs for most of its length under concrete slabs but was open at the point where the child had fallen in.

He was also highly praised by the witnesses to his action and, in consequence, he was awarded the Albert Medal in October 1948.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1610265.ece

So there we have it. Sixty years later a fireman is to be disciplined for saving a young girls life. I despair.

[English assassin]

I meant to post this myself a while back.

I've got a great idea for David Cameron. What we need is a "Stop Being So ****** Stupid Act" This act could be cited by anyone who is being hassled by some jumped up little git with a uniform and a clipboard and would entitle you, in law, to ignore whatever bureaucratic nonsense they were spouting until they could prove that they were not being ****** stupid.

With any luck we would see a long queue of out of work heath and safety "experts", "diversity advisors" and their like down the jobcentres.

[Andres]

I wonder what the employer would have said if the fireman had saved his daughter...

Common sense, does it still exist in our modern western societies?

This is so, so, so wrong

[TB666]

What the fudge !!!
That is fubar to the extreme.
The guy should be hailed as a hero, not be punished.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I'd resign and tell the fire service to **** off if I was treated like that, quite frankly.

[InsaneApache]

I wonder what the employer would have said if the fireman had saved his daughter...

He'd probably thank him, and then give him his P45.

[KukriKhan]

...With any luck we would see a long queue of out of work heath and safety "experts", "diversity advisors" and their like down the jobcentres.

wearing signs:

Here's Yer Sign Video

Having been properly tagged (signed), reasonable people could know to ignore such folk.

[Proletariat]

In EMT courses in the States it's heavily stressed that you always secure your personal safety first, then that of the victims. Idea being if you get yourself killed, you can't do anyone good, particularly any other victims in danger, who are more easily saved.

Sort of the harsh way any triage system works, you're supposed to overlook the quadruple amputee bleeding all over the place in his death throes, and attend to the victim lieing next to him who 'merely' has a severe femoral arterial bleed. In a seemingly cold thought process, you save the most likely to survive, and don't bother in the case that it's likely you'll get yourself killed along with the patient.

Not playing devil's advocate here, just throwing out what may be some of the reasoning. Also, never heard of anyone actually getting in trouble for that sort of heroism here. We do have the 'Good Samaritan Act', so evidentally we were suing people here when they didn't save our lives 'properly'. In the US of all places, shocker.


The Illinois version of that law;
http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilc...+Samaritan+Act.

[doc_bean]

I blame the lawyers

[InsaneApache]

I blame the lawmakers. Morons.

@ Prole

Years ago in another life, I was a trained lifeguard. It was stressed to us in our many training exercises never to enter the water, unless as a last resort. There are obvious reasons why not to. We had to use a rope or pole to pull them (casualties) out.

One of the first times on duty I saw a kid with all the tell tale signs of drowning. Upright, mouth fully open, wide, wide eyes and under the water. Did I run about looking for the nearest pole or rope? Did I chuff! I jumped in and pulled the little begger out.

Then I gave him a bollocking for getting into deep water without being able to swim properly. (and making me get wet) I bet he's got a family now.....sometimes you just have to do the 'right' thing.

[English assassin]

I blame the lawyers

That's an infringement of my human rights. I feel discriminated against and demeaned. You'll be hearing from my, err, from me....

[Proletariat]

Then I gave him a bollocking for getting into deep water without being able to swim properly. (and making me get wet) I bet he's got a family now.....sometimes you just have to do the 'right' thing.

Totally agree and great job you did there, IA. Just wanted to point out that the guys pursuing disciplinary action are merely idiots, rather than folks who go around punishing heroic deeds for it's own sake. I suppose that didn't really need pointing out look back at the thread. Forget everything I posted here; I second Doc's analysis.

[Andres]

I blame the lawyers

Ah, but you must look at it in a broad perspective my friend. Thnx to this at first sight "stupid behaviour", jobs are being created: several experts have to do expertises, we need more judges and related employees, off course a few legal experts, someone to write new regulations to prevent these kinds of situations etc etc.

On second thoughts, this employer needs a statue for creating so many new job opportunities, which will lead to a better economy, more wages, more taxes, and eventually the state can afford for each citizen a personal fireguard able to save your life in the most safe conditions.

All hail to the lawyers !

[JR-]

I meant to post this myself a while back.

I've got a great idea for David Cameron. What we need is a "Stop Being So ****** Stupid Act" This act could be cited by anyone who is being hassled by some jumped up little git with a uniform and a clipboard and would entitle you, in law, to ignore whatever bureaucratic nonsense they were spouting until they could prove that they were not being ****** stupid.

With any luck we would see a long queue of out of work heath and safety "experts", "diversity advisors" and their like down the jobcentres.

agreed.

[KukriKhan]

I blame the lawyers

I blame the Insurance industry. They're the risk-averse culprits in affairs like these. So-called safety rules and reg's get written with their actuarial tables in mind.

IF fireman Brown had drowned while attempting the rescue, the bereaved Mrs. Brown could conceivably sue, not the victim, but the department/gov't for failing to insure her husband's safety. To counter that risk, they write "must have a life-jacket, and a rope, and a pole, and authorization from HQ" before attempting to do his job; then badda-boom-badda-bing: Brown took his own life by failing to observe written reg's, = 0 compensation for the widow.

Sucks.

[rory_20_uk]

In our hospital there are of course fire extinguishers. We were given a talk about the different types and how to use them. We were then instructed never to do so... Obviously otherwise if we were hurt in a fire we might sue the hospital.

[Andres]

I hope you realise that the Org can not be held responsible for any possible headaches, headinjuries or any other fysical or psychological harm whatsoever caused by the use of that particular smiley...

Anyway, I'm glad to see common sense still exists here. Fancy that: the backroom as a lonely bastion of common sense.

[JAG]

Though I do not agree in this case that the fireman deserves to be investigated into how he saved the woman - providing of course that all information has been revealed, I do suspect the Times a lot of the time... - the principle which is being exercised here is not necessarily a bad one.

I think that the principle of investigating how the police, doctors or fireman do their job and even save lives, especially in cases such as this is not a bad one. For instance I do not think that it would be particularily clever if every fireman jumped into save that woman if is was clear that the liklihood result was that they would all die. The only way to make situations safer for all is to investigate these instances. It may well have been easier to try and rescue the woman from ashore, for instance, or for the fireman to get back up, just because what he did worked, it does not mean that it will a) always work or b) be the best thing to do.

I guess I don't have the terrible aghast first thought all you other guys and gals seem to have when thinking of 'pen pushers with clipboards'. Normally, after all, they are only attempting to make things better and funnily enough they normally do.

[Andres]

I'm wondering what safety regulations the employer was talking about.

If it is like "must have a life-jacket, and a rope, and a pole, and authorization from HQ", those safety regulations would make it impossible to actually safe lifes in cases of emergency and in that case one can ask himself the question if it's not better to just get rid of the whole police force, fire squads and the like.

Overregulation might result in absurd inefficiency to a degree where the people involved can't do the jobs they are supposed to do anymore.

Also, it's disturbing to see how this man who saved a young woman's life gets a reprimande instead of a medal or at least a pat on the back.

[rory_20_uk]

Though I do not agree in this case that the fireman deserves to be investigated into how he saved the woman - providing of course that all information has been revealed, I do suspect the Times a lot of the time... - the principle which is being exercised here is not necessarily a bad one.

I think that the principle of investigating how the police, doctors or fireman do their job and even save lives, especially in cases such as this is not a bad one. For instance I do not think that it would be particularly clever if every fireman jumped into save that woman if is was clear that the likelihood result was that they would all die. The only way to make situations safer for all is to investigate these instances. It may well have been easier to try and rescue the woman from ashore, for instance, or for the fireman to get back up, just because what he did worked, it does not mean that it will a) always work or b) be the best thing to do.

I guess I don't have the terrible aghast first thought all you other guys and gals seem to have when thinking of 'pen pushers with clipboards'. Normally, after all, they are only attempting to make things better and funnily enough they normally do.

ROFLMAO!!!

Oh, there are masses of jobs in the NHS just waiting for you!!!

Us Doctors are crying out for more regulation for non-clinically trained people to tell us how to do our jobs! Only last week I have had to submit my audit request to the audit co-ordinator. It is incidentally a national audit so plenty of clip boards are already poised.

After a week the signature by the audit co-ordinator hasn't been received so nothing has inf act happened. I had 4 weeks to do it...

What the morons off the front line rarely grasp is that doctors, police and firemen have in many cases seconds to make life or death decisions. We don't have time for the People's Book Of Bureaucracy to see what someone thought at a meeting was the best thing to do.

Normally make things better? Kept up to date with the farce with Doctor's jobs?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Though I do not agree in this case that the fireman deserves to be investigated into how he saved the woman - providing of course that all information has been revealed, I do suspect the Times a lot of the time... - the principle which is being exercised here is not necessarily a bad one.

I think that the principle of investigating how the police, doctors or fireman do their job and even save lives, especially in cases such as this is not a bad one. For instance I do not think that it would be particularily clever if every fireman jumped into save that woman if is was clear that the liklihood result was that they would all die. The only way to make situations safer for all is to investigate these instances. It may well have been easier to try and rescue the woman from ashore, for instance, or for the fireman to get back up, just because what he did worked, it does not mean that it will a) always work or b) be the best thing to do.

I guess I don't have the terrible aghast first thought all you other guys and gals seem to have when thinking of 'pen pushers with clipboards'. Normally, after all, they are only attempting to make things better and funnily enough they normally do.

Well here's a thought:

He saved her life, without any harm to himself, a thirty second investigation would tell me he did the right thing, a thirty year one the same.

I'm sorry but the idea you need to investigate when things go right is just silly. When attempting to save someone's life you're aiming for fast, not clever. That fireman was clearly able to swim in that water. What you are suggesting is that we should have a set of "one size fits all" rules.

Life isn't like that.

Besides which it is the job of a fireman to risk his life.

[Hosakawa Tito]

"So that others may live" is the motto for the US Coast Guard's rescue swimmers. It is also a creed for many in law enforcement, fire protection, military, etc... From what I read of this man's character, demonstrated by his selfless act, I'm sure he has the courage of his convictions, and will take on this bureaucratic department stupidity with no regrets for his actions. The media, and family of the rescued, should excoriate the department publicly for any disciplinary action taken against such a heroic act. Give them enough bad PR, and they'll back down.

As a rescuer, securing ones own safety is part of the procedure. However, life doesn't always go by the book. Sometimes one must act now irregardless of the danger, and we should be thankful that there are people willing to do so.

[InsaneApache]

Amen.

[Incongruous]

I blame the lawyers

C'mon guy's there must be someone else you could blame other than Lawyers

[Shaka_Khan]

There's definately less people willing to save one's life because of that.

Maybe the fireman and his employer didn't get along. What kind of person would punish a hero?

[Duke of Gloucester]

Though I do not agree in this case that the fireman deserves to be investigated into how he saved the woman - providing of course that all information has been revealed, I do suspect the Times a lot of the time... - the principle which is being exercised here is not necessarily a bad one.

Agreed about the Times JAG. If you read the article carefully and look at the quotes rather than the journalistic interpretation you will see that the Mr Brown did not act alone - he was lowered in to the water on a rope that broke - and that the incident is being investigated. The senior officer on the scene might be disciplined for approving a procedure that put Mr Brown at risk. Mr Brown himself is clearly a hero and he should have been congratulated. Others may have made mistakes at the scene and it is right that this being investigated. The Times says he might face discipline, but the quotes from the Fire Brigade spokesman say something subtlely different and much less newsworthy.

[Vladimir]

C'mon guy's there must be someone else you could blame other than Lawyers

The US. No, no...US lawyers. Say like Federal Attorneys. Fire them all I say!