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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I didn't do very well with the interview. Is he arguing that the Gospels were never intended as literal in any sense? If so, how would he explain the literal interpretative tradition that goes back to even Primitive Christianity?
    In the final part of the interview he states that John's Gospel and Paul's written speeches are turning-points in the interpretation of the Christ-stories, i.e. they mark the transition to litteralism which you indicate. That is the 'radikale Verschiebung, was den Umgang mit den alten Texten angeht' : a 'radical shift, as far as the treatment of the old texts is concerned'.

    As for your first question, I found a few quotes from an earlier book of his, The Bible in History (1999):

    "Traditions such as the Bible's, which provided ancient society with a common past, are very different from the critical histories that play a central role in contemporary intellectual life."

    and

    "The Bible's language is not an historical language. It is a language of high literature, of story, of sermon and of song. It is a tool of philosophy and moral instruction."
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-06-2007 at 09:43.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Francesco Carotta thinks that Jesus was totally fictional, being based on none other than Julius Caeasar.
    This link:
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma.html
    Gives a summary of his thesis.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by derfinsterling
    Francesco Carotta thinks that Jesus was totally fictional, being based on none other than Julius Caeasar.
    This link:
    http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma.html
    Gives a summary of his thesis.
    I find the summary less than convincing on the central thesis. But there has clearly been a convergence of icons, rites, beliefs and literary conventions between religious sects in the Roman empire and this would be one example of that phenomenon. Another example would be the overlap between early Christianity and Mithraism.
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Want to start counting Mesopotamian influences in the Judeo-Christian tradition ? Shouldn't be exactly breaking news everyone cheerfully plagiarized their neighbours' stuff.
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Want to start counting Mesopotamian influences in the Judeo-Christian tradition ? Shouldn't be exactly breaking news everyone cheerfully plagiarized their neighbours' stuff.
    The news is that Jesus is made up and mostlikely never existed (for those who still believe in it)

    Read the article Adrian posted

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Too much German for me to want to wade through with my rusty skills this early in the day. Anyway, the personage getting all kinds of weird stuff tacked onto himself isn't exactly positive proof such a cult leader didn't exist, is it ? Far as I know it was a perfectly normal practice to attribute old mythical stuff even to living personages such as kings and rulers, nevermind now posthumously...

    Some of those weird apocryphal miracle-working tales I've heard about Mohammed sound kinda like the same principle - the person being associated with such deeds simply because it was obviously considered de rigeur for a prophet or about anyone else associated with the divine in some fashion to have done such.

    Dunno about what Roman sources might or might not say, of course.
    Last edited by Watchman; 04-06-2007 at 12:23.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Too much German for me to want to wade through with my rusty skills this early in the day. Anyway, the personage getting all kinds of weird stuff tacked onto himself isn't exactly positive proof such a cult leader didn't exist, is it ?
    One doesn't have to wade through the German interview to read my English synopsis where it is stated that according to Thompson the Gospels are not concerned with a historical Jesus. Which is not to say there never was a person called Jesus.

    Apart from that, I would object to the notion of 'weird stuff' - and so does Thompson by the way. The Monastery has a scholarly tone, not a confrontational one like the Backroom.

    Thompson's work has been severely criticised by serious scholars. One instance of a hard-hitting counter-argument would be this review by Charles David Isbell. In other instances Thompson and other scholars with a similar approach have even had to defend themselves against accusations of anti-semitism. Thompson dealt with this rather effectively in this essay on a website where, by the way, Charles Isbell is an associate editor.

    As you can see the subject is a minefield even among academics. That is why I posted my message here and not in the Backroom. I hope the spirit of the Monastery will be respected. My seasonal greetings in my orginal post certainly extend to all.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    In the final part of the interview he states that John's Gospel and Paul's written speeches are turning-points in the interpretation of the Christ-stories, i.e. they mark the transition to litteralism which you indicate. That is the 'radikale Verschiebung, was den Umgang mit den alten Texten angeht' : a 'radical shift, as far as the treatment of the old texts is concerned'.
    I see. I couldn't understand how he could argue my first impression given a literalist understanding seems the norm up until at least St. Ambrose (5th Century).

    I looke up the 'Messiah Myth' on Amazon. Below is the full review of the longest and most favorable of the bunch. It appears an informed review.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "The Historical Jesus Quest is really composed of two quests. One involves sifting through the texts and developing methodologies for dealing with the data. The other involves situating the figure of Jesus in the proper historical context.

    The battle over the proper context for Jesus has been one of least-recognized but most profound of the various struggles among New Testament exegetes. After WWII exegetes began to strongly emphasize the Jewishness of Jesus. Laudably, this was partly in response to the "Aryan Jesus" of 19th century scholarship, that eventually found its apotheosis in Nazi doctrines. However, it was also in response to the arguments of scholars from the schools of myth and comparative religions, who had argued in the period prior to the Second World War that Jesus resembled similar figures of the ancient Near East and Mediterranean. By reinforcing the Jewishness of Jesus and delinking him from the surrounding cultures, New Testament scholars sought to protect him from the assaults of the comparative religions school.

    At first glance it is easy to mistake Thomas L. Thompson's The Messiah Myth for a revival of this school. Don't. The Messiah Myth does not attempt, as the comparative religions school did, to seek out parallels to Jesus and then link Jesus to them. Rather, Thompson attempts to recover the Greater Context: an enormous toolkit of ideas, themes, and observations that dominate the literature of the Near East, and find expression in all of its major texts, including the Bible, and in all of its major heroes, including Jesus and David.

    Despite the subtitle The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, Thompson's book does not focus strongly on Jesus. The vast majority of the work consists of exploring the Old Testament and other Near Eastern texts to show that they all make use of the same complex of tropes in composing their various stories. This complex of tropes includes reversals (of rich and poor, the powerful and the peasantry, the weak and the strong), descent-ascent motifs, messiah as priest, king, and warrior motifs, and similar structures and idea familiar to readers of the Tanakh and the Christian writings. Thompson thus does not seek to show that Jesus is a myth by close analysis of the stories about him, like G.A Wells and other mythicists have done. Instead, he offers a rich new context against which the figure of Jesus can be evaluated.

    Thompson opens the book with a chapter entitled "Historicizing the figure of Jesus" that is apparently intended as a critique of the various Historical Jesus figures that New Testament scholarship has produced. He observes:

    * "A wary reader does well to recognize the wish fulfillment of Schweitzer's figure of Jesus. His mistaken prophet is historical primarily because he does not mirror the Christianity of Schweitzer's time. But the assumption that this mistaken prophet of the apocalypse is a figure appropriate to first century Judaism is itself without evidence. The prophetic figure Mark presented, and the assumed expectations associated with his coming, belong to the surface of Mark's text. Schweitzer did not consider why Mark presented such a figure or such expectations. Nor did he consider whether the life of such a person and the expectations of his coming in fact belonged to the historical reality of first century Jews in Palestine, or whether both expectations and figure were literary tropes. Then the figure of the messiah might express Judaism's highest values within Mark's story does not imply that either the figure or expectations about him were to be found in early first-century historical Palestine."(p6-7)

    The opening chapter serves notice: the historical Jesus is an assumption, rather than a discovery, of scholarship. "Dating sayings common to Q and Thomas as an "earliest level" of sayings and suggesting a time between 30 and 60 CE for their origin is a conclusion drawn from the assumption that there was an oral tradition derived from a historical Jesus' teaching."(p11) From whence, then, stems this figure

    * "As we will see in the following chapters, the most central sayings in the gospels were spoken by many figures of ancient literature. That they are "sayings of Jesus" is to be credited to the author who put them in his mouth. Many sayings the [Jesus] seminar identifies as "certainly authentic" are well-known and can be dated centuries earlier than the New Testament. The very project of the Jesus Seminar is anchored in wishful thinking. Evidence for the prehistory of these sayings is so abundant and well attested that we can trace a continuous literary tradition over millennia."(p11)

    Having sounded the eschatological alarm, Thompson slowly bids the Gospels goodbye, and enters the world of the Old Testament. In the second chapter, "The Figure of the Prophet", there is much back-and-forth between the Gospel stories and the Old Testament, but by the time we get to chapter four, "The Song for a Poor Man", the Gospels have been left behind, and we plunge into a world of international texts from antiquity, each full of themes the echo, extend, comment on, and interact with, the recurring tropes that make up the Tanakh.

    Thompson builds his reading of the texts by searching out themes common throughout the Near East, collecting texts from many places. Writing on the Good King, he says:

    * "Some of our stories serve as memorials to the king, while others are dedications of a cult place. Thirteen of the twenty-one inscriptions are presented in autobiographical form, where the king plays the role of author as well as subject. Eight present the story of the king in the third person. The Idrimi stele (no. 13), which is engraved on a statue of the king, presents its first-person form by locating the closing lines in a cartoon balloon coming out of the king's mouth. In spite of the autobiographical form, some of these inscriptions are likely posthumous."(p157)

    The themes he builds function as tropes, recurring themes that appear in texts all over the Near East.

    For example, in the Near East there is a common trope: a "utopian, comprehensive, and transcendent" peace that is the goal of every king's rule. Thompson identifies this peace in many different texts (including in an appendix), including tales about Idrimi, Nabonidus, and Esarhaddon, as well as David.

    At his best when building his collection of tropes, The Messiah Myth falters whenever it comes near the Gospels, giving the impression that Thompson is wielding a hammer in whose presence everything attempts to turn into nails. After establishing the existence of a trope referring to the children and the kingdom, Thompson then turns to the Gospel versions:

    * "Of the six occurrences of the trope Crossan calls "kingdom and children" sayings, four are classified as independent and two dependent. Only the authority of scholarly tradition of the primacy of Mark supports the judgment that the very close variations of the saying "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them; for to such belong the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 19:14) and "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them; for to such belong the kingdom of God" (Lk 18:16) are dependent on the similar saying in Mark: "Let the little children come to me; do not prevent them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Mk 10:14). This saying, nearly identical in all three gospels, clearly offers a common trope, but the primacy of Mark's version, including the phrase "kingdom of God" he shares with Luke, does not stand on its own merits. The assumption that Mark is the source for the versions of Matthew and Luke is unprovable. Similarly, that the saying in Mark is the most likely original can be shown to be without merit."(p76)

    While it is quite true that any sayings tradition is ultimately an assumption of scholars, that is not the case with the relationship between the Synoptic Gospels, where scholars possess all three of the relevant texts. Thompson either does not understand, or does not care to understand, the complexities of the Synoptic problem and the way that it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of most scholars that the first gospel written was Mark. Right or wrong, the priority of Mark is a conclusion, not an assumption.

    This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark. Thompson apparently regards these writings as largely independent, and locates their similarities in the use of common tropes rather than literary dependence. This position is indefensible, and does nothing for the book's credibility.

    Nevertheless, for those of us interested in the New Testament and in the Bible in general, there are innumerable insights and understandings. Thompson writes with an assurance and erudition that commands our attention, and manages to suppress any pesky doubts that might arise when we observe his cavalier attitude toward New Testament scholarship. Using the insights he develops from the tropes he collects, Thompson is often able to correct scholarly misapprehensions:

    * "Like the 'kingdom of God,' the metaphor of my father's kingdom is not apocalyptic in the sense that it implies expectations of the end of the world as Schweitzer thought. It is rather a utopian and idealistic metaphor for a world of justice. In ancient Near Eastern and biblical literature, it is related to the figure of the savior-king who, by reestablishing divine rule, returns creation to the original order."(p198)

    Because Thompson functions at the level of tropes, larger themes that govern the structure of texts, there is actually little here that is useful against the figure of Jesus as a historical figure. Despite his complaints about New Testament scholarship Thompson himself provides no answers to the questions he raises. Showing that tropes are part and parcel of ancient texts simply undermines Thompson's own implicit argument against a historical Jesus, for many of the texts that Thompson uses to support his case are either about, or from, historical figures. Hence it is easy to argue that the Gospel writers simply cast their historical figure in the standard Near Eastern format, and dismiss Thompson with a wave of the broader theme. Mythicism will never advance until it begins to churn out detailed, verse-by-verse readings of the relevant texts that show precisely how they are built out of literary convention, pre-existent sayings, Old Testament passages, themes, and concepts, and literary tropes and broader mythic themes. For that purpose Thompson will provide useful insight, but no decisive view.

    Despite the title, those who come to this book seeking arguments against Jesus historicism will be disappointed. But readers who pick this volume in search of new understandings of old texts will not leave the table hungry. There Thompson pours out a cornucopia which this reviewer's New Testament-oriented interests cannot hope to adequately capture. I highly recommend The Messiah Myth to anyone with a general interest in ancient Near Eastern mythology and story, including the Bible texts. For them, The Messiah Myth will be bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, and a ferryboat to the boatless."



    In reading the review I found this interesting:

    "While it is quite true that any sayings tradition is ultimately an assumption of scholars, that is not the case with the relationship between the Synoptic Gospels, where scholars possess all three of the relevant texts. Thompson either does not understand, or does not care to understand, the complexities of the Synoptic problem and the way that it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of most scholars that the first gospel written was Mark. Right or wrong, the priority of Mark is a conclusion, not an assumption.

    This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark. Thompson apparently regards these writings as largely independent, and locates their similarities in the use of common tropes rather than literary dependence. This position is indefensible, and does nothing for the book's credibility."

    If this is correct then Thompson seems to have left his thesis up to some pretty intense criticism.
    Last edited by Pindar; 04-07-2007 at 01:35.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark.
    Even if Mark was written first (as the reviewer has it), it does not necessarily follow that it is the 'most historically important' of Synoptic Gospels.

    If Mark's Gospel were indeed 'closest in time' to a historic Jesus episode, then this proximity, in addition to the nature of the text, would certainly make this the most important Gospel. But it is precisely the historicity of that episode which remains to be proven. Or rather: shown to be plausible, since that seems to be the highest measure of proof attainable for any statement in this entire field, given the nature of the available sources. In any case, Mark's chronological proximity to what was possibly a non-event does not speak to its veracity.

    An alternative view on relative importance of the Gospels might be that all four primarily or even uniquely reflect the preoccupations of the authors' own place and time, cast in the mold of the familiar Near Eastern tropes and centered on a legendary or even mythical Christ. If seen in this way, John -- being the bistro intellectual of the bunch and given to abstractions and sweeping statements -- may actually represent these concerns more eloquently than the other three. Hence John would be the most historically important.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-07-2007 at 19:40.
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    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Most interesting, I will read this more closelly.

    On the other hand I assume everyone is familiar with this too yes?

    http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/

    *goes reading*
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar
    Most interesting, I will read this more closelly.

    On the other hand I assume everyone is familiar with this too yes?

    http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/

    *goes reading*
    I believe most archaeologists consider this a hoax.
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    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    I believe most archaeologists consider this a hoax.
    Yes most do, not all, but the majority that is not willing to put their own credibility on the line with such a controversial issue of cource do.

    To me at least the possibility remains there, but I do understand tha many whose livellyhood depends on approuval ratings would think twice before accepting this as fact. And lets face it, it makes sence from a personal point of view, yet, those reasons are personal, and as such, if taken under consideration, also make the "expert" opinion, not so expert anymore.

    Human nature, what can I say, but lets not detract from the original topic :)
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Egypt (Osirian cult)” Is this one with the black Stone? I always wonder if the black Stone in the Mecca and this one were the same…?
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Even if Mark was written first (as the reviewer has it), it does not necessarily follow that it is the 'most historically important' of Synoptic Gospels.

    If Mark's Gospel were indeed 'closest in time' to a historic Jesus episode, then this proximity, in addition to the nature of the text, would certainly make this the most important Gospel. But it is precisely the historicity of that episode which remains to be proven. Or rather: shown to be plausible, since that seems to be the highest measure of proof attainable for any statement in this entire field, given the nature of the available sources. In any case, Mark's chronological proximity to what was possibly a non-event does not speak to its veracity.

    An alternative view on relative importance of the Gospels might be that all four primarily or even uniquely reflect the preoccupations of the authors' own place and time, cast in the mold of the familiar Near Eastern tropes and centered on a legendary or even mythical Christ. If seen in this way, John -- being the bistro intellectual of the bunch and given to abstractions and sweeping statements -- may actually represent these concerns more eloquently than the other three. Hence John would be the most historically important.

    I think you missed the thrust of the potential criticism: the issue is that standard scholarly opinion has Mark as the Synoptic text on which Matthew and Mark depend. Thompson's work (based on the review) treats each as independently sourcing to a larger oral tradition. Much of his argument appeals to assumed tropes from Mathew and Mark. If there is a literary dependence then that would undercut his thesis at an early stage of analysis. Thompson does not appear to engage the conventional view. This is problematic.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I think you missed the thrust of the potential criticism: the issue is that standard scholarly opinion has Mark as the Synoptic text on which Matthew and Mark depend. Thompson's work (based on the review) treats each as independently sourcing to a larger oral tradition. Much of his argument appeals to assumed tropes from Mathew and Mark. If there is a literary dependence then that would undercut his thesis at an early stage of analysis. Thompson does not appear to engage the conventional view. This is problematic.
    I think you are mixing up Gospels here, but I get your point anyway. Thompson's answer would be, I guess, that all Gospels draw on previous sources. Besides, scholarly opinion often assumes that the later Gospels draw on Mark + 'Q' instead of on Mark alone. And then of course there is the issue of Paul's preceding letters. I think one would have to read Thompson's book to see what he makes of all of this in detail.
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