Results 1 to 30 of 94

Thread: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

Threaded View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #15
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The base of Yggdrasil
    Posts
    3,710

    Default Re: Archaeologist: "Jesus" predated Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    My dear Pindar, it has been said before on this website: if any one of us should one day need a good lawyer, that lawyer would have to be you. You never, ever give up; even if your words fly in the face of Mssrs Merriam and Webster, you will stare them donw, force them to rewrite their own dictionary and make them thank you for it.
    I am a humble servant of the true. Of course, Merrium and Webster agree with me.

    Cryptic as usual, but clear in substance. Please bear with me as I try to bear with you.
    Sorry, I wasn't going for cryptic.


    1. From my superficial knowledge of Mormonism I think I understand your overall position: the Christian canon reflects the teachings of the early Church of Rome as it tried to establish orthodoxy and stamp out teachings and practices it considered as heresies (for instance 'Judaisation').
    Apostolic writings that did not fit this teaching were discarded, and passages of the canonical books rewritten to make them conform to incipient orthodoxy. We can more or less reconstruct this process of canonical selection and recomposition in the early Church if we turn to extant apostolic writings, such as the Diadoche of the Apostles or the Clement letter.

    Is my understanding accurate so far?
    Pretty good, but the Mormon notion that the original Jesus movement did not survive doesn't look to the Vicar of Rome as the heavy. Rather, the lights went out before the Christian Imperial phase and the later rise of the Papacy in the barbaric West.

    I used proto-orthodoxy to identify one voice amongst a larger cacophony that constituted Early Christianity.

    2. Furthermore it seems to me that you, Suraknar and myself share a common interest. All three of us believe that within the wealth of extant sources of the period, we should be able to isolate instances of pure spiritual experience (which you call Divine interaction), as opposed to secundary experience, hearsay, mystification or deliberate falsehoods.

    Accurate so far?
    I guess so, but given the nature of the texts: no originals, internal inconsistencies, the 'orthodox versions' (the Synoptics + St. John) do not actually note their authors, as well as larger issues i.e. the whole notion of having a New Testament Canon seems to be in reaction to the first such attempt via a labeled heretic: Marcion, it seems difficult using the historical data alone.


    3. I believe that Mormons think certain passages in the Christian canon have been rewritten, and that a reconstruction of the original passages is possible. One instance would be the story of Lot in Genesis. Lot gets a bad rap in the Christian canon (he trades his two daughters' honour for that of two angels visiting his home). Whereas Mormons are of the view that the original passage shows him to be the 'righteous' man deserving of God's grace after all.

    Accurate so far?
    Lot's issues (the moral absurdity) in Genesis 19 illustrates some of the Canon's problems that predate the Christian Era and also demonstrates that textual corruption was by no means unique to the Christians.


    4. I am presuming a lot and I'm out on a limb here, but supposing that all this more or less reflects your views, I have a concrete question (I'm a journalist, I believe in the use of concrete examples).

    Question: can we establish who rewrote that passage, or more importantly under what circumstance, and most important of all why is was rewritten in this fashion?
    The answers to those questions depend on the text or issue being looked at. There are general themes that can be noted however. For example, the deuteronomic coup against the Royal Cult of First Temple Jewry explains some of the shifts that occurred within Judaism. Here is one text that addresses this point: The Older Testament: The Survival of Themes from the Ancient Royal Cult in Sectarian Judaism and Early Christianity Within Early Christianity there are multiple issues that help explain a general wherefore to text exclusion and alteration. One would be the move against all esoteric Christian sects as a way to control doctrinal content. Irenaeus would be a simple example. His "Against Heresies" (CE 180) stands as a stark contrast to say Clement of Alexandria's Stromata which embraces esoteric Christian teaching. Here is one good text I know that addresses some these issues: Hidden Wisdom: Esoteric Traditions and the Roots of Christian Mysticism
    Last edited by Pindar; 04-17-2007 at 20:21.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO