The Greatest American

[Louis VI the Fat]

This thread is a spin-off from the election of the greatest Portuguese thread. Pindar inspired me to open a .org version of other countries. So let's have our own elections of Greatest this or that.

One thread in which all countries get lumped together will kill all debate, it will become cluttered. I think a good format would be to choose our Greatest American and Greatest Briton seperately. These two make sense demorgraphically. It's not sensible to have seperate threads for greatest Fin, Canadian, Argentine or Frenchman, so I'll lump us all together in a single third thread, where everybody can post their lists, or shred apart those of others, from any nationality. I'll do the biggest one now, to see if this generates some interest, and if so I'll do the other two later.


My top ten:

1 Benjamin Franklin
A leading political thinker AND a scientist

2 Thomas Jefferson
America's great idealist

3 Bruce Springsteen
America's greatest poet and artist. Everything I know about America Springsteen has taught me.

4 James W. Monteith
You don't know him. He died at the age of 26, on June 6, 1944.

5 James Madison
The most influential force behind the constitution.

6 George Lucas
Star Wars!

7 Franklin D. Roosevelt
Maybe America's greatest president

8 Charles Lindberg
Anybody willing to risk life and limbs just to get from America to Paris as quickly as possible deserves a nomination.

9 Bill and Hillary Clinton
Future generations will call them America's two greatest post-war presidents

10 Ronald McDonald
Anybody who invented le Big Mac should be on this list.


Hmm, three founding fathers, no authors, one woman, one scientist, no business tycoons, whites only. These lists don't turn out the way you expect them to be. It's tough, many more deserve a mention.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

1 Benjamin Franklin
A leading political thinker AND a scientist

2 Thomas Jefferson
America's great idealist

Well those two are good.

Bruce Springsteen
America's greatest poet and artist. Everything I know about America Springsteen has taught me.

That explains alot. I cant stand him.

5 James Madison
The most influential force behind the constitution.

OK Ill give you that one

7 Franklin D. Roosevelt
Maybe America's greatest president

You mean worst

9 Bill and Hillary Clinton
Future generations will call them America's two greatest post-war presidents

Samething as FDR......the worst Though FDR was far better but did a lot more damage.

[Proletariat]

1) Jefferson

2) Washington

3) Franklin

3) Marie-Joseph-Paul-Yves-Roch-Gilbert Du Motier

4) Truman

5) Steinbeck

[Lemur]

Wow, my tiny little brain is going to explode at the thought of trying to boil down the great Americans into a top ten. Do we emphasize the political? Then Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, obviously. Do we go for invention? Science? Industry? Does Edison go on the list? Henry Ford? What about our artists and writers? Melville, Twain, Steinbeck, Whitman, all of them deserve something. Do we count the artists? Does Jackson Pollack get a place, of was he really "Jack the Dribbler"?

What about music, seeing as Gospel, Blues and Rock & Roll originated on our shores? Chuck Berry? Miles Davis? The entire world of Motown? George Gershwin? Sondheim?

Where do we put Oppenheimer and Einstein? Alexander Bell? Joseph Henry?

And what about the people who expanded our freedoms? Harriet Tubman kicked a lot of booty, and you'd be hard-pressed to say there was someone "greater" than her. Martin Luther King, whatever you think of him, did valuable work, and nobody in their right mind wants to undo what he did.

How about our warriors? Jackson, Grant, Lee, Patton, etcetera, etcetera.

No, I don't have the necessary brainpower to boil this down. America has been blessed with an astonishing number of great people in its history. There isn't a top ten list made that I can live with.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

hmm. Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, MLK, Edison, gosh this is hard. I don't really know enough history to say. Who invented the bikini?

[Lemur]

Gah! The bikini was invented by the French! Gah!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Hmmm,

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
Abraham Lincoln
Ronald Reagan
James Madison
Teddy Roosevelt
Thomas Edison
Robert E Lee
General Patton

No, I don't have the necessary brainpower to boil this down. America has been blessed with an astonishing number of great people in its history. There isn't a top ten list made that I can live with.

Ditto. My list above is a futile attempt.

Louis - Springsteen as #3?! Argh. And the Clintons? And FDR? Triple-argh.

CR

[BigTex]

Abraham Lincoln, someone who isnt on your list. Great man who lead the way through one of the worst times in USA history.

Albert Einstien, whether you'd classify him as a refugee or just a german, I call him a great American. Brilliant man who created much of the physics we know today. Also a great passifist, up there with Ghandi IMO.

[KafirChobee]

Well those two are good.

That explains alot. I cant stand him.
OK Ill give you that one
FDR
You mean worst
Clinton
Samething as FDR......the worst Though FDR was far better but did a lot more damage.

I had no idea you were so sinicle. No doubt, now that Reagan is in heaven he has supplanted God as the supreme being.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Albert Einstien, whether you'd classify him as a refugee or just a german, I call him a great American. Brilliant man who created much of the physics we know today. Also a great passifist, up there with Ghandi IMO.

Not only is this man a GERMAN (so he does not qualify as an American), I hold him primarily responsible for the division of physics in to those who carry out the experiments and those who think up the ideas. This was a bad development. He was also hostile to quantum mechanics which undermines the claim that he created much of the physics we know. This does not mean that he was not a genius and would certainly be in a list of top ten scientists. However even if he were American, he would not be in the top 10.

My list:

Benjamin Franklin
Abraham Lincoln
Martin Luther King
George Washington
Nathaniel Hawthorne
Richard Feynman
Joshua Chamberlain
Harriet Beecher Stowe
Elizabeth Blackwell
Carrie Chapman Catt

[Petrus]

Robert Johnson, the only man that makes you float through happiness with a few minutes of his music.

Miles Davis, James Brown and a few other American artists also come close from this category.

[Kralizec]

Einstein was born German, but he renounced his citizenship around the time the Nazis grabbed power IIRC. He was an American citizen when he died.
Edison...not enthusiastic about this one, keeping in mind how he screwed Tesla.

I don't really understand the anti-FDR sentiments. In retrospect, he did lots of things that damaged the American economy, but you can't really blame him- they didn't have the same understanding of economic principles that we do today, and he did it with the best intentions. And for better or worse, without him the office of the POTUS would't be the centre of power as it is today. I don't think he's the best, but he's certainly above the norm when it comes to American presidents. Dislike of him always seems to boil down to political convictions rather then his performance.
Reagan...also above the norm. "Reaganomics", wether you like it or not, did have the intended impact of reducing inflation and recession. However his record with managing his presedential duties in general is rather mediocre, the lowest point being the Iran-Contra scandal when he declared he had absolutely no knowledge about his staff's activity, wich doesn't speak well of him.
OTOH, I'm relieved nobody's mentioned JFK. Now there is a genuinely overrated president.

James Madison gets my vote. His support of divided government and institutionalized pluralism had decisive impact on the constitution, the greatest American statesman in the early years IMO.

[InsaneApache]

Benedict Arnold.

[Adrian II]

James Madison gets my vote. His support of divided government and institutionalized pluralism had decisive impact on the constitution, the greatest American statesman in the early years IMO.

Seconded. James Madison improved on Montesquieu's trias politica in a decisive way by acknowledging the need for a fully independent judiciary to complement and balance the other two powers. For that reason he beats Daffy Duck, albeit by a small margin.

[Kralizec]

MacArthur - Whatever. I don't want to hear it. This guy won the war in the pacific, only to get shot down by a government without the balls to do what had to be done to win, when it came to Korea. Thus began the limited war, which has been plagueing us ever since, yet somehow remains an acceptable strategy.

Maybe you shouldn't have posted it then? Not withstanding ones record in WWII, someone who in the Korea war thinks it's a good idea to reduce Beijing/Peking to radioactive dust is a fringe lunatic. His attempts to bypass Truman's authority were way out of line, and he got what he deserved.

Seconded. James Madison improved on Montesquieu's trias politica in a decisive way by acknowledging the need for a fully independent judiciary to complement and balance the other two powers. For that reason he beats Daffy Duck, albeit by a small margin.

Personally, I prefer Homer Simpson.

[BigTex]

Not only is this man a GERMAN (so he does not qualify as an American),

The man was as American as any other on the list. Everyone in this great nation has come here from elsewere. He died an American citizen he was as American as George Washington. He definately makes the top ten, one of the more brilliant scientists of the 20th century.

[Vladimir]

My top ten:

1 Benjamin Franklin
A leading political thinker AND a scientist

And seducer of many French women .

[KukriKhan]

Kukri's picks:

#1: Jim Thorpe, who not only embodied, but expanded the American Dream to include every american. Up by his bootstraps, top of his field, dashed by technical error, resurrected by his own efforts. Truly a self-made man, a re-invented man, and a doggedly determined man. My hero, since boyhood.

#2: George Washington, who overcame his Englishman-ness to set the bar for what it meant to be American, when that title was still in its defining stages. Stepped up when duty called, stuck with the struggle even in hard times, could have been crowned King of the land, but eshewed that as un-american. The definitive public servant, the equal of whom is rarely seen.

#3: The guy who said "Let's Roll" on Flight 93, on 9-11. Faced with the prospect of imminent pain and death, and the knowledge of his captors intentions, he (and his fellows) chose active resistance. Ordinary guy, in extraordinary circumstances, stepping up and doing an extraordinary thing, regardless of personal consequence.

My top 3.

[doc_bean]

I shoudl probably give this more thought, but for now, i'd definitely back my fellow low landers with the Madison nomination.

Kukri's picks:
#3: The guy who said "Let's Roll" on Flight 93, on 9-11. Faced with the prospect of imminent pain and death, and the knowledge of his captors intentions, he (and his fellows) chose active resistance. Ordinary guy, in extraordinary circumstances, stepping up and doing an extraordinary thing, regardless of personal consequence.

Great choice ! I'd like to add that a short 'catch phrase' like 'let's roll' is definitely very American.

[Reenk Roink]

10) Mike Modano (hockey player):

One of the top 5 greatest American hockey players ever. Only the second American born player to hit 500 goals and is now first in career goals scored by Americans. The scary thing? He's not even a offensive type player. A great two-way player still very underrated defensively, and a consummate leader. Did I mention he's a Michigan boy?

9) Sitting Bull (Sioux leader):

Fought heroically for his people and land but even more importantly, was a family man and a really friendly guy. A role model for us all. Great name and great hair.

8) and 7) are some people I know who are really great.

6) Grigori Rasputin (man of many talents):

He was American. Stop listening to Russian propaganda.

5) Chris Chelios (hockey player):

Arguably the greatest American hockey player ever, one of the top 10-20 greatest defensemen ever, his longevity is legendary, and at his peak was one of the best rounded defensemen ever, winning 3 Norris trophies against incredibly stiff competition. Played defense excellently, offensive menace, and a painful physical presence. At 45, he has lost his speed and offensive game, but is still a great defensive player and still polled by others as one of the toughest to play against.

4) Comic book guy (funniest man ever):

Who else knows more about Science fiction and comic books? Have not seen someone more funny.

3) George Berkeley (smart man who killed Calculus for 230 years):

There is no Ireland. He was American (he's got a dorm room in Yale). Idealism, Empiricism, Bishopism, Anti-Calculusim...

2) Pat Lafontaine (hockey player):

Lalalalafontaine is the greatest American forward and only has Chris Chelios to compete as the greatest American hockey player ever. Chelios has the longevity but Lafontaine had the best peak of any American. Simply a magnificently talented, intelligent, and gentlemanly player who had to play in the era that was the bane of centers (80's- early 90's) and so is incredibly underrated. Injuries cut a huge swath on his career, but it is still great as is. Did I mention he grew up in Michigan?

...and finally...

1) The Esteemed Representative from New York in the Second Continental Congress:

Greatest political theorist ever who found the only solution to our crap form of government/politics (sadly it is ignored and democracy remains the opium of the masses). Trumps any of our loser presidents/politicians.

Icing on the cake is that he did everything with class and courtesy.

[Stig]

Great Americans? Are there great Americans?



Well Walt Disney, atleast he did something that was good for the rest of the world (untill you reach the age of 12).
William Hanna and Joseph Barbera for similiar reasons.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Benjamin Franklin
And seducer of many French women .

Yes, he was flirtatious backstabbing bastard. Spending his evenings seducing the daughters of the French diplomats he tried to sway to his cause during the day. His years with the Parisian upper circles were one big, scandalous affaire of lust and intrigue. He shamelesly exploited our hospitality to satisfy his own promiscuous lust at every opportunity he had.

I guess that explains his enduring popularity here. What a legend!
____

Louis - Springsteen as #3?! Argh. And the Clintons? And FDR? Triple-argh. CR

Clinton - as above. Scandalous affaires are a sign of virility and strong personality. We just can't take a man of power seriously if he can't even manage to have himself an exiting love life.
If a president can not even seduce a young, impressionable intern, what good is he when confronted with an experienced president of Russia?
____

Here's a classic Springsteen video, his Born the USA. Such a great song and video. He shows that you don't have to be obsessed with the size of America's balls to love it with a passion.
____

Hmm, so far none of the Euros have mentioned George Washington, many Americans have. Funny.

Here's the top 25 of the American tv show:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ronald Reagan - 24% - named "Greatest American"
Abraham Lincoln - 23.5%
Martin Luther King, Jr. - 19.7% - named "Greatest African American"
George Washington - 17.7%
Benjamin Franklin - 14.9%
George W. Bush - named "Greatest Living American"
Bill Clinton
Elvis Presley - named "America's Greatest Entertainer"
Oprah Winfrey - named "Greatest Woman in American history"
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Billy Graham
Thomas Jefferson
Walt Disney
Albert Einstein - named "Greatest American Scientist" and "Greatest Jewish American"
Thomas Alva Edison
John F. Kennedy
Bob Hope
Bill Gates
Eleanor Roosevelt - named "America's Greatest First Lady"
Lance Armstrong - named "America's Greatest Athlete"
Muhammad Ali
Rosa Parks
The Wright Brothers
Henry Ford
Neil Armstrong

[Proletariat]

Hmm, so far none of the Euros have mentioned George Washington, many Americans have. Funny.

Well, Duke of Gloucester had him at four. Unless your not counting England as Euro, I suppose.

That list is very good, too! LOL@Oprah>TJ

[Stig]

Lance Armstrong - named "America's Greatest Athlete"

Am I allowed to shout: Dope, Dope!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What about:

Norman Ernest Borlaug (born March 25, 1914) is an American agricultural scientist, humanitarian, Nobel laureate, and the father of the Green Revolution. Borlaug received his Ph.D. in plant pathology and genetics from the University of Minnesota in 1942. He took up an agricultural research position in Mexico, where he developed semi-dwarf high-yield, disease-resistant wheat varieties.

During the mid-20th century, Borlaug led the introduction of his grain and modern agricultural production techniques to Mexico, Pakistan, and India. As a result, Mexico became a net exporter of wheat by 1963. Between 1965 and 1970, wheat yields nearly doubled in Pakistan and India, greatly improving the food security in those nations. These collective increases in yield have been labeled the Green Revolution, and Borlaug is often credited with saving over a billion people from starvation.1 He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970 in recognition of his contributions to world peace through increasing food supply.

[Vladimir]

Sounds like he's a contributor to the illegal immigration problem and helped supply the war between Pakistan and India. My vote is

Of course none of you have provided the obvious answer:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Louis, with your criteria, how can you list Clinton but not JFK - who did his romancing much more artfully, and wasn't a person of corruption and deceit.

Argh - Oprah's on that list? Greatest American Woman?!?! Who voted - a bunch of stupid housewives?!

Am I allowed to shout: Dope, Dope!

No. He probably got tested more than anyone else and was never found to have been doping.

Good list Kukri.

Crazed Rabbit

[Pindar]

I'm going to vote for only one as I think that is the point of the question.

I'll qualify greatest along the following simple lines: originality, impact and profundity.

My vote is Lincoln.

A simple why: Lincoln is The American Civil War. The Civil War is the touchstone where the colonial root meets the nation that followed. It was at that point the sacrifice was made that created the secular faith of the nation. Lincoln not only preserved the Union, but turned the conflict from a base national preservation, to a moral campaign where the land was forced to reckon with the bigotry instilled in the founding legal document of the country: the Constitution. He thereby combined national interest with moral clarity. The moral dimension, as noted by Tocqueville among others, is what fed into and feeds the psyche of the American Experiment.


Louis, maybe after you get what you think is a good selection you could turn it into a poll. You may want to set it up to see what American Orgahs see as their greatest and what everybody else sees for comparison.

[Gregoshi]

Over half the list from the TV show are Americans that lived in the past 40+ years...I don't think so. And how blessed are we today that 3 of the last 4 presidents are in the top 7? We tend to favour those we know over those we've just read/heard about.

My top American list - the first two are easy:

1) Benjamin Franklin - his influence was so broad: politics/diplomat, writer/printer, inventor, musician, athelete, science, environmentalist, business, social (founding first American library, fire company, etc), and boy could he coin a catchy phrase.

2) Abraham Lincoln

After this, ranking becomes difficult for me, so here's the rest:

Mark Twain

Lewis, Clark & Sacagawea as a group

Frederick Douglas

The Wright Brothers

Bill Gates: regardless of ones opinion of him, his influence on the US and the world is huge.

Elvis Presley

Thomas Jefferson

Robert E. Lee & Ulysses S. Grant: the right generals in the right place at the right time to end the Civil War in the right way without fracturing the country even more.

Jim Thorpe

Martin Luther King

Chief Joseph


This is a hard list to compose. I'm sure there are many others I've omitted but others have covered.

[Stig]

No. He probably got tested more than anyone else and was never found to have been doping.

Au contraire, they found doping, but it was too old so it might (5%) not have been doping afterall so they couldn't take the 2000 Tour (was it that one) from him.

Next to that he only did the Tour every year. He never won anything else. Sometimes a stage in the Dauphine Libere. He became 2nd in the Amstel Gold Race once, but got beaten in the sprint by Erik Dekker (and have you ever seen Erik Dekker sprinting).


There are loads of American Sportsmen that were better then Armstrong who only did 1 race a year.