When are a prince's stats decided?

[gunslinger]

I understand that your king's influence and command stars affect the quality of his offspring, especially where the sons' command rating is involved. Is the prince's command rating decided when he is born, or when he matures? I often wonder if it is worth rushing to relieve an ally's garrison or complete a crusade in the last couple years before a prince matures.

[Ironside]

I understand that your king's influence and command stars affect the quality of his offspring, especially where the sons' command rating is involved. Is the prince's command rating decided when he is born, or when he matures? I often wonder if it is worth rushing to relieve an ally's garrison or complete a crusade in the last couple years before a prince matures.

It's decided the last time the king (usually his father, but can be his brother) has a change to his stats (this happens after every battle throughout the empire, even those were the king isn't in, the influence changes, but not enough to be visible), before the hier matures.


His traits are decided on maturing though.

[Peasant Phill]

In other words, whatever the stats of the king the year the prince matures, that is the base for the stats of the prince. Keeping this in mind it could be worthwhile to put an attack with your king as general off for a few years if this king has a good attacker virtue until your prince is 15.
I do this regulary playing as the Volga-Bulgars. My Khan has 3 stars but the good attacker virtue is easy to win in the opening years. Timing my attacks just right, means that when the heir matures, my king is just on the offensive and facing a field battle with some rebels. 3 stars become 4 (vitrue) and my heir will have better stats than he would have gotten with a 3 star father.

[Lord Cazaric]

S'good.

I'm just thankful (playing Almohads, thankful to Allah) that my princes all have full command, acumen and dread. It's the same with the men who used to be princes but never inherited (I haven't yet installed VI after changing Windows). I had a collection of such men in Tunisia, until the Egyptians stole Cyrenacia from my soldiers and marched into Tunisia. Only 2 of the great commanders survived - those two led two armies out of Algeria and Morocco into Tunisia three years later, and reconquered it.

30 losses to my men in the battle, and 700 Egyptian dead. Fairly good outcome, if I do say so myself.

[macsen rufus]

It's not necesessarily a good thing to wait til the last minute, as your King's influence will also directly affect the loyalty of all other troops trained in the meantime. The sooner his influence goes up, the more loyal your army will become (because you're training troops with higher loyalty earlier). Also you may get another chance to add yet another star to your king's abilities if you do the first attack sooner

[Peasant Phill]

True, it al comes down to a bit of calculation.
A king gains 1 crown of influence for every 2 provinces that are conquered (provided the realm doesn't lose provinces). Like every general, kings will gain command stars if they win enough battles (1, 2, 4, 8, ...). certain virtues, most importantly the good attacker line.

Make sure, if at all desireable, to have your king at the peak of his potential (influence, stars) when your princes mature. But I'm sure others are more apt at breeding their royal line.

[EatYerGreens]

One thing to look out for is that some of the "your ruler's wife has given birth to a son" type messages can actually relate to the king's grandchildren. (There just aren't any in-game messages to make this clear).

This is all highly dependent on your policy with regard to royal marriages of course: -

If you neglect to marry your of-age princes, you can end up in a situation whereby the king gets to his 60's, his heir is 40+ but unmarried. When the king snuffs it, the heir will probably pick up an aristocrat's daughter, within 2 years and start sprogging BUT you will be, technically, lacking an eligible heir for 15 years (give or take the new king's brothers), longer if you have a string of daughters first, so this king will be well into his 50's before you can confidently risk him in battle.

The Muslim factions are all somewhat disadvantaged by this situation being hard-coded for them. (Or is it that, when I play as them, I just think it's completely absurd for them to request marriage to a Catholic\Orthodox princess?) One way or another, the princes don't get given access to the harem until they accede to the throne, which doesn't seem realistic to me.

In my current English campaign, I have a king aged 59, whose influence has gone up substantially during his reign (from ~5 to 9) but whose command stars have not increased at all (from 4). His son is 41; command 3; married and has under-age children.

Based on what macsen and Phill have been saying and, since the heir has been practically inactive for much of his life, when his eldest son comes of age, in about 4 years' time, he will have lesser stats, like command 2, rather than stats based on what his grandfather has acquired. All assuming that my current king is still alive when the grandson comes of age, that is.

[Ironside]

The Muslim factions are all somewhat disadvantaged by this situation being hard-coded for them. (Or is it that, when I play as them, I just think it's completely absurd for them to request marriage to a Catholic\Orthodox princess?) One way or another, the princes don't get given access to the harem until they accede to the throne, which doesn't seem realistic to me.

Rather the opposite, the muslim hiers does always get access to the harem. The problem is that it can only exist 6 male hiers at the same time, so a king with 5 brothers can only have 1 son and cannot have children before he becomes king.

In my current English campaign, I have a king aged 59, whose influence has gone up substantially during his reign (from ~5 to 9) but whose command stars have not increased at all (from 4). His son is 41; command 3; married and has under-age children.

Based on what macsen and Phill have been saying and, since the heir has been practically inactive for much of his life, when his eldest son comes of age, in about 4 years' time, he will have lesser stats, like command 2, rather than stats based on what his grandfather has acquired. All assuming that my current king is still alive when the grandson comes of age, that is.

The hier's stats are only affected by the current king, no matter the true genetical relationships.

[seireikhaan]

I had a game once where I ended up testing this theory out. I created 2 save files, one for what ended up the good king, and one for what ended up being the bad king. Basically, it went like this.

In file one, my king lives to 73 years old and his first son matures just as he dies, taking the crown instead of the king's worthless brother, who was only a few years younger than him, and unmarried to boot. The king was good, with around 4-6 piety, command, and acumen, with slightly lower dread. He also had an influence of 9. My heir matures with 7 piety, 3 dread, 7 command, and 6 acumen. Thus began a great reign of roughly 50 years, including 2 sons with 8 command and awesome stats all around, plus 3 more quality candidates as well.

In the other file, my king died before the heir matured, and the brother took over at the age of 66. The brother had only 1 command, 4 piety, 0 dread, and 2 acumen. Plus the influence of the kingship dropped from 9 to 3. The former king's son matured, and was an utter disaster. 1 piety, 0 dread, 1 command, and 0, I repeat, 0 acumen. The new king died four years after his coronation at the age of 70, leaving the kingdom to the newly matured prince. This resulted in the destruction of my kingdom, as I couldn't make ANY money. I was losing money even when I wasn't building anything at all. On top of this, the year was 1130 or so, and I was the Danish, with a small budget at the start of this debacle. Soon I dipped into the red, dismissed troops and destroyed buildings, and was summarily destroyed by the English and HRE.

[EatYerGreens]

Rather the opposite, the muslim hiers does always get access to the harem.

If I said that I was referring to the way that they don't collect the marriage ring icon until after they have ascended to the throne, does that mean the two of us are talking about the same thing, or not?

The problem is that it can only exist 6 male hiers at the same time, so a king with 5 brothers can only have 1 son and cannot have children before he becomes king.

That I didn't know. Can't say I'm thrilled about this kind of restriction either. It certainly explains sudden - and unexplained - outbreaks of princesses though...

The hier's stats are only affected by the current king, no matter the true genetical relationships.

That's encouraging to hear. Thanks for the info.


@greaterkhan

I've long wondered whether the ruler's acumen ever had any bearing over the health of the economy or not and, if so, to what extent.

The sudden shift to a negative cashflow, due to a 0-acumen king - and not due to new units in the army - is certainly a sign that it does have a modulating effect.

I still hanker after an extra line in the Economy parchment, summarizing the contribution of trade, so that I could see at a glance that my cashflow is never less than the trade element - a sure sign that I'd over-built troops and would be vulnerable, if suddenly blockaded. Yet another line, indicating just how much the ruler's acumen was contributing to the economy would be just as useful. If sobering, at times...

[Deus ret.]

I've long wondered whether the ruler's acumen ever had any bearing over the health of the economy or not and, if so, to what extent.

The sudden shift to a negative cashflow, due to a 0-acumen king - and not due to new units in the army - is certainly a sign that it does have a modulating effect.

Hmm that's an interesting question indeed. With governors, each acumen feather equals 10% more income, but with the king, it seems to be more complex.
The perceived drop in income might also be due to the new king not having yet aqcuired virtues like 'steward' (always a pain when this 'magnificent steward' king of yours dies, especially with large land empires), 'builder' or other happiness-affecting traits (since I leave my taxes on auto most of the times the AI adjusts them to a lower level each time the ruler changes to a noob, so to speak).

There remains quite a lot to be researched on this issue.

[Peasant Phill]

What influences the amount of influence (no pun intended) a heir gets when he is coronated?

Is it the heirs stats? The amount of provinces under his control? The influence of the old king? all of the above?

[Martok]

@EatYerGreens: For faction leaders, they increase their faction's income by roughly 2% per feather of Acumen. (Acumen and Dread work much the same way in this regard.) That's why when a king dies, you probably notice a drop in your income, but that it's not necessarily a drastic difference.

What influences the amount of influence (no pun intended) a heir gets when he is coronated?

Is it the heirs stats? The amount of provinces under his control? The influence of the old king? all of the above?

That's a darn good question, Phill. If you can figure that one out, then you're definitely smarter than me -- not that that would take much.

As best I can tell, it's mostly affected by the old king's influence combined with the number of provinces you own. Whether the new king's stats affect his influence as well, it wouldn't entirely surprise me. I've never managed to detect any direct correlation between the two, however.

[gunslinger]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[seireikhaan]

Hmm that's an interesting question indeed. With governors, each acumen feather equals 10% more income, but with the king, it seems to be more complex.
The perceived drop in income might also be due to the new king not having yet aqcuired virtues like 'steward' (always a pain when this 'magnificent steward' king of yours dies, especially with large land empires), 'builder' or other happiness-affecting traits (since I leave my taxes on auto most of the times the AI adjusts them to a lower level each time the ruler changes to a noob, so to speak).

There remains quite a lot to be researched on this issue.

In the second file where the brother took over first, my economy sunk a little bit, what with him having 2 acumen and no steward or builder. However, in those 4 turns he ruled, I still managed to break mostly even on my profits. The heir took over and I was losing about 300 per turn, even when not building or training. Obviously, if I tried building or training, I went down even more. So yes, losing the steward trait hurt, but with the 2 acumen king, I still managed to not go bankrupt. With the original king, I was routinely pulling in about 500-600 florins per turn in profit, even with a few build and train orders. It was the 0 acumen that ultimately did me in.

[Ironside]

If I said that I was referring to the way that they don't collect the marriage ring icon until after they have ascended to the throne, does that mean the two of us are talking about the same thing, or not?

Been a while since´playing but I recall that the classical inhierence where the royal brothers die rapidly together happens less with the muslims. Although the true test is to se if a new king messes up the hiers, as his children won't be showed until he's the new king.

What influences the amount of influence (no pun intended) a heir gets when he is coronated?

Is it the heirs stats? The amount of provinces under his control? The influence of the old king? all of the above?

I suspect all of the above (except possibly the amount of provinces by itself), but there's a clear link between very good stats on the hier and his starting influence. That's atleast 2 stats over 6 to get the royal line more self sustaining on giving good hiers.

[Bregil the Bowman]

The Muslim factions are all somewhat disadvantaged by this situation being hard-coded for them... One way or another, the princes don't get given access to the harem until they accede to the throne, which doesn't seem realistic to me.

If the game followed the Ottoman model realistically, the Princes would not leave the harem until the king's death. The Ottoman leaders in later days were highly suspicious of their sons' ambitions and kept them closely confined. Upon the death of the king, a chosen son (usually the eldest) would inherit all and the others would be put to death, to avoid any challenge to the throne.

Fortunately MTW reflects the more dynamic approach of the earlier Muslim princes.

[EatYerGreens]

@ Deus Ret

I'd not taken the king='steward' thing into account at all, so thanks for reminding me.

It's obviously good to have - while it lasts - but, having been stung by this situation at least once, I now take an approach similar to my attitude to trade income, mentioned earlier. I try to keep my cashflow at least in the four-figure range and always remain mindful of these kinds of boosters at work in the background. In other words, avoid training more troops if it's going to eat into that range, knowing that it won't last forever.

It's a pity they didn't program the AI apply a similarly cautious policy - it tends to build troops right up to its 'support limit'. This then throttles its progress with buildings and assures that high-tech troop types rarely appear. (Give or take occasional cash top-ups from pillage & ransoms). If it gets its trade routes working (for once), if only for a few turns, or a temporary steward-king booster then it can over-train and, later, dig itself into a negative cashflow situation all too easily. As we all know, the AI is incapable of unit disbandment.


@ Martok

Thanks for putting an exact figure on it.

I'm guessing that you worked that out by reading the base-level incomes from the startpos file, allowing for the governor's acumen and then working out how the remaining discrepancy related to the ruler's acumen. (Wish I'd thought of doing that!)


@ Ironside

I'm pretty sure that, with the Catholics, it is possible for the heirs parchment to show the king's brothers, children and grandchildren. With the Muslims, they don't get the marriage ring and start producing children until on the throne themselves.

I'll revise what I said before - about them being at risk of being left heirless for 15 years after each succession - in that the throne can still pass from brother to brother, in the meantime, but that still entails a fresh start each time, children-wise. It's then a matter of seeing whether the eventual ruler dies of old age before the eldest child matures.

@ Bregil the Bowman

That's interesting, about the Ottomans. One of several huge holes in my knowledge of history.

Rather grim outcome for the younger brothers though - not even a 'spare' kept in case of illness/accident, either? Rather odd.

Fortunately MTW reflects the more dynamic approach of the earlier Muslim princes.

Come to think of it, I'd presume that the kind of antics you referred to were precisely what inspired this draconian policy in the first place...

[Martok]

@Martok

Thanks for putting an exact figure on it.

I'm guessing that you worked that out by reading the base-level incomes from the startpos file, allowing for the governor's acumen and then working out how the remaining discrepancy related to the ruler's acumen. (Wish I'd thought of doing that!)

Actually, I didn't even look at the starpos files either, as I had no idea how to do so at the time. (There are others who've done so, however -- would that I'd known how myself!) The way I figured it out was a little less scientific, and a little more....roundabout.

What I did was to run a "test" campaign. Playing as the HRE (since they start with so many provinces), I managed to get my Emperor killed and then replaced with an heir who had 0 Acumen. I then went through and manually looked at the base income of each province I had, making sure to first eliminate any & all income-boosting buildings (trading posts, farm upgrades, etc.). After that, I killed my new 0-Acumen Emperor (suicide mission, I believe), who was replaced by a general with 3 Acumen. I then used the new Emperor (and a couple of his successors) to determine the income boost he gave to his provinces.

It wasn't a very elegant process to be sure, but it did give me the approximate numbers for Acumen. It was only much later (I ran this test campaign over 3 years ago) that I found out I could've just looked at the startpos files -- it would've saved me a fair bit of time and effort, had I but known.

[The Unknown Guy]

(Or is it that, when I play as them, I just think it's completely absurd for them to request marriage to a Catholic\Orthodox princess?)

For the record, it happened often. Ottoman Sultans married Byzantine noblewomen to gain kudos points. Specially since after the fall of Constantinople they styled themselves "Roman Emperors". A hundred years later, Suleiman II (?), married a greek slave he had and made her his çueen, and in-between wars he wrote her poems (an odd man)

In Spain the situation was simmilar, with the added link that there were relations already between noble families in each side of the "religious frontier". Almanzor married a princess from Navarre, during the Ummayad caliphate. Afterwards there was also a lot of marriages, alliances (and treacheries) between the spanish muslim kingdoms and the christian ones. To bring up two examples: Rodrigo Díaz, aka, el Cid, was a vassal of the king of Castile, but technically the ruler of Valencia, which was mostly muslim, and kept its laws. Thus, there was a christian ruler of an Islamic principate.

The second example is Boabdil, ruler of the last muslim Kingdom in Spain. His family was originally from the North, Zaragoza. And after the fall of his kingdom he remained in Spain as a noble with titles and lands for some time, until interreligious tension made things troublesome for muslims and he sold everything and left for Morocco before everything hit the fan.

For the record, when I play muslim factions I princess-snatch often if I can help it. To help the odds, I usually target princesses bordering retiring age (3x), which makes the AI more willing.
I think that in general the AI will marry princesses more willingly when the target is of the same religion, but I´m not l00% sure in this.
As a çuirk: In a Viking campaign, the Welsh "bought" my help against the saxon and mercian invaders by marrying off their princess to my altogether-very-pagan heir. (I was moved and immediatedly plundered several Northumbian monasteries to demonstrate it)