Hot Provinces and Armour

[Maloncanth]

Hot provinces hurt armoured units, we know this.

Does anyone know if there is a gradient of hot provinces? ie some that are semi-hot and others that are very hot?

Does anyone know how to identify hot provinces by something other than rote memory and if not, does anyone have a list of hot provinces in VI and/or XL? I know for example, that Egypt is definitely hot but I'm not sure where the line between hot and not-hot lies in Spain or the Near East.

I've also heard that Armour 3 is the commonly accepted limit for taking units into the desert. Does anyone know if the amount of armour above 3 matters? ie does having 4 armour differ from having say 9 and if so, at what increments of armour value does the hot province penalty increase?

[Deus ret.]

Does anyone know if there is a gradient of hot provinces? ie some that are semi-hot and others that are very hot?

I think the closer a province's terrain is to sand desert the hotter it gets. I.e. Palestine (rock desert?) is not as hot as the Sinai, where sand desert prevails.

Apart from that, use your imagination and take certain climatic changes since the middle ages into account - would you like to walk around and fight in South Spain in full armour? Well, probably not in the summer, but since you can't influence the season of the battle, it might be a better idea to leave those armour 8 knights at home.

I'm pretty sure there is a difference between the detrimental effect of climate on a armour 4 unit and on an armour 9 unit, and I'm even more certain that there was a thread about that not too long ago, but I'm afraid I can't find it atm....

[caravel]

I believe the sand desert and rock desert terrain types produce "hot battles". The rest is determined by the amount of armour.

[EatYerGreens]

Hi Maloncanth.

The trick is to read the 'terrain-type' information on the province parchment (before you invade it).

Terrain Types
Lush
Steppe
Temperate
Arid
Rock/Sand Desert


I think the desert terrains are a definite but I'm not aware if fatigue factor begins to kick in at Arid, or in Temperate or if, in fact, there's a steady progression right through the entire range.

Increasing levels of armour count as "encumberance" so, even in Lush terrain, Silver/Gold armoured troops will tire at a faster rate than their lesser compatriots. They can certainly hold their own in a protracted slugging-match but don't let them run around too much - get lighter-equipped units to do that. In a way, it's a good thing that different provinces you own will be at different levels of progress, with armourers.

Also bear in mind that some unit types are classed as 'armoured', even in their basic, un-upgraded form, so they will reach the threshold sooner than other types. So, for example, FMAA are more heavily penalised by armour upgrades than peasant-class units, like Gallowglasses/Clansmen/Spears/Militia.

I'll leave others to expand on the 'desert armour limit' part in more detail. I recently had to use bronze-armour (+2) FMAA in the desert and they really suffered badly (mobility as well as casualties). Rather than demolish a perfectly good armourer in the province they came from, I'm getting another province (Navarre w. Metalsmith) teched up to make them but with no armourer at all.

[caravel]

I was sure arid has no affect. Most of Iberia is Arid and I've never had any problems with Spanish armoured units there.

[Deus ret.]

Also bear in mind that battles in wintry landscape (=snow) result in endurance/melee penalties equal to those in deserts.

As for the sand/rock desert part, I had the impression that my knights didn't tire as quickly on rocks as compared to sand where they became next to useless after a couple of minutes. Instead, their endurance was limited and soon dropped to two bars, but at least they regained stamina up to those two bars when idle (for a while, that is), whereas in a sand environment they would continue to tire even while just standing around.

[Ciaran]

If you have to use heavily armoured units in the hot climates, make sure they´re in the first wave (i.e. among the sixteen units initially on the battlefield), even when they´re off the field the heat penalty seems to hit. I once had a couple of Chivalric Knights as reinforcements in a desert battle, by the time they reached the field they were already dropping from sheer exhaustion.

[ULC]

Same here but I was in Khazar fighting off the Horde for 6 hours, fighting off all 45,000 thousand of them with a mere 12,000 soldiers and a handful of trees. My CFK were totally exausted after killing 2,500 horses, so I began their slow withdrawl. when the reinforcment halberdiers came, they had 2 bars! I lost the battle eventually, 3,000 dead to 22,500 ( I got bored so I just retreated to let them go rebel).

[CountMRVHS]

Interesting... a question related to this: does the snow penalty apply *more* to heavily armored units, or does it apply equally to all units? I was under the impression that snow tired all troops at an equal rate, but my understanding of stamina on a unit-per-unit basis is far from perfect.

[macsen rufus]

Heavily armoured units do suffer more than lightly armoured units in snow. To see this effect in trumps, try the Napoleonic mod, where artillery has armour levels of around 40 - in snow and deserts they are exhausted after a single shot. Metal conducts heat very well - in this case outwards!

[The Unknown Guy]

would you like to walk around and fight in South Spain in full armour? Well, probably not in the summer, but since you can't influence the season of the battle, it might be a better idea to leave those armour 8 knights at home.

In northern Spain right now, it´s hot enough to discourage me from wearing light leather jackets, let alone parade in plate mail.

Jests aside: in MTW, Spain is Temperate, and there´s no heat penalty for units there (excluding camels, that is, so if you´re playing the almos, leave the bedouins at home and use horses)

Also: you CAN influence the weather to an extent. Whereas there´s no clear season change like in Shogun, the campaign map sounds point out whether it´s a "hot" or a "cold" year. I think this is relevant to mention, as it can be important if you´re plotting to invade Morocco or the Middle East with European armored units. Invading Morocco or Syria in winter will mean that the fight will take place in Temperate weather instead of Arid or Desert. That much I know, by testing. I do not know, however, if it applies to anything beyond those provinces (IE: AFAIK Egypt could be a permanent desert)

[Deus ret.]

in MTW, Spain is Temperate, and there´s no heat penalty for units there

Oh yes, of course you're right. Thanks. I once spent a summer holiday in the beautiful region around Granada and remember being totally beaten down by the heat, so I thought I'd bring it up as an example. Poor knights, the desert's even hotter...

Edit: I'm not entirely sure but I'm still skeptic about endurance penalties occurring only in deserts and snow. I'm pretty sure that in lush Polish terrain, my knights regained all four bars after standing around for long enough, whereas hotter climates (Rum for sure) wouldn't allow any of them to climb back over 2 bars.

Also: you CAN influence the weather to an extent. Whereas there´s no clear season change like in Shogun, the campaign map sounds point out whether it´s a "hot" or a "cold" year. I think this is relevant to mention, as it can be important if you´re plotting to invade Morocco or the Middle East with European armored units. Invading Morocco or Syria in winter will mean that the fight will take place in Temperate weather instead of Arid or Desert.

What, campaign map sounds? Interesting. Never noticed any difference so far... could you maybe give a hint as to the difference in sound? It would indeed be good to know in what season the battle will take place.

[Ironside]

Also: you CAN influence the weather to an extent. Whereas there´s no clear season change like in Shogun, the campaign map sounds point out whether it´s a "hot" or a "cold" year. I think this is relevant to mention, as it can be important if you´re plotting to invade Morocco or the Middle East with European armored units. Invading Morocco or Syria in winter will mean that the fight will take place in Temperate weather instead of Arid or Desert. That much I know, by testing. I do not know, however, if it applies to anything beyond those provinces (IE: AFAIK Egypt could be a permanent desert)

You sure that this isn't because you invade from a different direction? If you hover over the neighbouring provinces you'll see that the climate varies from different invasion directions by some reason.

Testable by checking if the display is always correct and that it doesn't change from year to year.

[caravel]

Jests aside: in MTW, Spain is Temperate, and there´s no heat penalty for units there (excluding camels, that is, so if you´re playing the almos, leave the bedouins at home and use horses)

All of Spain has the terrain type "ARID" which I believe has no affect on armoured units, though I am not 100% certain. "TEMPERATE" terrain type is only found in the northernmost European provinces such as those in northern Russia or Scandinavia.

Also: you CAN influence the weather to an extent. Whereas there´s no clear season change like in Shogun, the campaign map sounds point out whether it´s a "hot" or a "cold" year. I think this is relevant to mention, as it can be important if you´re plotting to invade Morocco or the Middle East with European armored units. Invading Morocco or Syria in winter will mean that the fight will take place in Temperate weather instead of Arid or Desert. That much I know, by testing. I do not know, however, if it applies to anything beyond those provinces (IE: AFAIK Egypt could be a permanent desert)

Ironside is correct in that different terrain types occur as a result of different border crossings. Weather is random, though winter battles will occur if you've already fought some battles previously that year.

[gaiusjulii]

I have a personal barriers which I use with armoured units, I go no further south than Cordoba in spain and Constantinople and georgia as a rule. you might be able to go further south but these I know have no or very little heat penalties

[caravel]

You can go as far as Lesser Armenia, Armenia and Rum in the east. Going further into Antioch, Edessa and Syria brings you into rock and sand desert. In the west Morocco and Algeria are as far as you can go. Further than that, into Tunisia, again brings you into rock desert (though it should really be arid ground as well). Again I'm not sure of the effects of Arid ground on armoured units but, if there is any effect, it is much lower than the effects of rock and sand desert.

[Martok]

What, campaign map sounds? Interesting. Never noticed any difference so far... could you maybe give a hint as to the difference in sound? It would indeed be good to know in what season the battle will take place.

You'll literally hear the winter wind blowing throughout the soundtrack that turn. You just have to pay attention, and you'll hear it.

I have a personal barriers which I use with armoured units, I go no further south than Cordoba in spain and Constantinople and georgia as a rule. you might be able to go further south but these I know have no or very little heat penalties

I follow this general rule of thumb as well, although I'll go a little further south into Granada and Lesser Armenia/Rum. I'm okay with using heavily armoured units in arid provinces -- I've not noticed any negative effects myself, for whatever that's worth. As much as possible, though, I do avoid sending units with an armour rating higher than 3 into desert battles -- they just become exhausted too quickly to be worthwhile.

By the way, welcome to the Org, gaiusjulli.

[gaiusjulii]

thanks for welcome Martok. I will pay heed to the advice about being able to pretty much modern day turkey, I do however find it easysier to halt at constantinople, georgia and cordoba on a purely strategic not it leaves my border at one province nice bottle neck for rebuilding my desert armies he he he

[Martok]

thanks for welcome Martok. I will pay heed to the advice about being able to pretty much modern day turkey, I do however find it easysier to halt at constantinople, georgia and cordoba on a purely strategic not it leaves my border at one province nice bottle neck for rebuilding my desert armies he he he

Indeed. Many people who play as the Byz/Eggies/Turks often make it their goal to conquer all the lands in between Egypt, Georgia, and Constantinople -- this area is often referred to simply as the Southeast Triangle, or more simply the Triangle. Conquering your way west over to Cordoba is pretty much just an extension of that.