Just wondering

[gunslinger]

All of the intelligence points to the fact that Hussein had WMD's which he shipped out (probably to Syria) during the run-up to the war. Of course, the administration couldn't fall back on this information when they were being called liars, because to do so would have begged the question of why we weren't invading Syria.

So tempting ......but I shall leave it for now .

I'm tempted myself. However, I'm afraid we would be hijacking what has been a very civil thread.

[Tribesman]

I'm tempted myself.

Feel free , perhaps you could explain why 4 years into the mess you still cling to long disproven "facts" .
You have actualty reviewed the findings many commissions have made of "all of the intelligence" you claim points in certain directions ?
Though it would appear from what you wrote that you most certainly havn't reviewed any of it

But I think this post sums it up better..........

Sure, and Saddam was last spotted boarding the 10.45 to Leeds in a dress and high heels.

However your post did raise one interesting point .......the question of why we weren't invading Syria. ........would you perhaps like to drop the nonsense about smuggled non existant WMDs and explore the why it wouldn't be very clever to invade Syria line ?

[Whacker]

I will reiterate that we are training security forces as quickly and as well as we can, and effectively we are trying to pull out as quickly and as well as we can. The surge is temporary, what do you think comes after that?

It's been 5 years, and it's crunch time. It takes what, a few months at best to go through boot camp for the army? Add on top of that another few months for some additional training? 5 years and how many thousands of dead soldiers, it's time to start cutting the cord. A year from now is far more than enough time to have a very large contingent of sovereign forces trained and on duty.

EDIT: Oh, and for all of you "well these Ay-Rakies had better earn their freedom, it takes some effort y'know" people, let me tell you that while you are sitting in your homes with your electricity and your water safe and sound there are teachers and doctors and lawyers and artists and singers and nurses and good policemen and good civic leaders getting shot in the head or their heads chopped off or blown into itty little bits for no good bleeping reason. Why don't you tell them to go "earn their freedom".

That's what we've been saying. Freedom ain't free, you fight for it and sometimes have to spill your blood for it, my ancestors did in the American Revolution, the Civil War, and in World War II. Thanks to them I live in a place where I don't have to worry about nonsense like that, but if it came down to it I'd definitely fight for my and my family's freedoms. If the Iraqi people will not stand up to ensure this, then they deserve whatever fate gives them. It's been 5 friggin' years, and we'll give them another one for good measure. When that year is up, all bets are off. I've already voted and written my congressman support the resolution to withdraw completely in a year. For all you non-Americans who keep harping on "America needs to stay" because "leaving the Iraqis isn't the right thing to do!", please read above. It's been far too long, and if they can't stand on their own feet in a years time, that's too bad. Or perhaps you all would like to ante up some significant troop presense to take care of this? Sorry, but this just annoys me to no end, when people are free with criticisms but short on actions.

[Ice]

It's been 5 years, and it's crunch time. It takes what, a few months at best to go through boot camp for the army? Add on top of that another few months for some additional training? 5 years and how many thousands of dead soldiers, it's time to start cutting the cord. A year from now is far more than enough time to have a very large contingent of sovereign forces trained and on duty.



That's what we've been saying. Freedom ain't free, you fight for it and sometimes have to spill your blood for it, my ancestors did in the American Revolution, the Civil War, and in World War II. Thanks to them I live in a place where I don't have to worry about nonsense like that, but if it came down to it I'd definitely fight for my and my family's freedoms. If the Iraqi people will not stand up to ensure this, then they deserve whatever fate gives them. It's been 5 friggin' years, and we'll give them another one for good measure. When that year is up, all bets are off. I've already voted and written my congressman support the resolution to withdraw completely in a year. For all you non-Americans who keep harping on "America needs to stay" because "leaving the Iraqis isn't the right thing to do!", please read above. It's been far too long, and if they can't stand on their own feet in a years time, that's too bad. Or perhaps you all would like to ante up some significant troop presense to take care of this? Sorry, but this just annoys me to no end, when people are free with criticisms but short on actions.

Whacker:

You are seeing this much to black and white my friend. Something like Iraq, done as poorly as it was, takes many years if not decades to fully recover. We should be Iraq for another 10 years + at this rate of current progress.

This is not the Iraqis' fault in the least. It is our fault with our piss poor planning and execution of the war.

Comparing what you ancestors did in the American Revolution and Civil War are of little relevance to the war in Iraq sadly. Two totally different situations in two total different time periods in two totally different parts of the world.

[gunslinger]

Feel free , perhaps you could explain why 4 years into the mess you still cling to long disproven "facts" .
You have actualty reviewed the findings many commissions have made of "all of the intelligence" you claim points in certain directions ?
Though it would appear from what you wrote that you most certainly havn't reviewed any of it

Ok. I'll start with the worn out arguments that everyone has heard a million times: The intelligence agencies of the world thought the WMDs were there, Hussein had a history of using WMDs, and he continuously refused to allow the U.N. folks to carry out the inspections that were imposed on his country.

So, the U.S. decides to go to war, and when they show up there are no WMDs.

People start throwing together blue ribbon commissions. The commisssions speculate about the possible reasons no WMDs were found. The most spectacular and potentially damning speculations are trumpeted by the liberal crowd.

Backing up just a bit to the time between the invasion and the commissions, I was patrolling Baghdad starting on Easter Sunday of 2003 as an M.P. Thousands of Iraqi's smiled, cheered, waved, and wanted to shake our hands as we drove through the city. People fell all over themselves to take us to schools and other public buildings and show us the stockpiles of weapons Hussein had emplaced, expecting his people to rise up against us. Some of the people volunteering such information were members of the Iraqi military who had simply gone home rather than fight us. One of those soldiers spoke very good English, and was hired as an interpreter for my plattoon. When he told me that he had helped load chemical weapons onto trucks during the run up to the invasion, I didn't get too excited. I had already gotten excited when two other Iraqis had given me similar firsthand accounts. I was stunned when, after passing this information up the chain of command, I was told that it didn't concern me, they already had this information, and I shouldn't worry about it.

I didn't have access to any blue ribbon commission reports on the internet, so I just exercised my own meager mind a little bit and figured, "Hmmm, if we were willing to invade Iraq for those WMDs, and we start making noise about the fact that they are in Syria (or Iran or wherever), then we would have a hard time explaining why we aren't invading THEM. It could be that the Pres. is planning a different approach to that problem, or it could just be that he's used up all of his political clout getting this war off the ground, and can't afford another one." In any case, it was above my paygrade, I had done my duty, and I had enough on my plate with trying to accomplish my own missions.

So, the reason I still "cling" to those facts is that A: they haven't been disproven, as you claim, and B: I took statements from eyewitnesses who independently told similar stories about the removal of WMDs shortly before the invasion. At the time, the removal of the WMDs was "common knowledge" on the street in Iraq. I can only assume that the reasons for not going public with the information outweigh the political consequences President Bush faces when the left, and their media outlets, spend all their time screaming that he is a liar.

I'm sure you'll want to respond to this. I already feel that I've gone out on a limb as far as hijacking a thread, so I won't respond any more on this subject in this thread. If you would like to discuss this further, you may PM me or start a new thread, and we can ask the mods to move our posts to that one.

[Somebody Else]

Those who think we've been there for long enough already. How long ago did we go into Kosovo? Was that better executed than Iraq? Because we're still there too.

[Tribesman]

I'm sure you'll want to respond to this. I already feel that I've gone out on a limb as far as hijacking a thread, so I won't respond any more on this subject in this thread.

Thats OK , you screwed up in the first paragraph of your last post
But this line is definately worth a laugh......

The most spectacular and potentially damning speculations are trumpeted by the liberal crowd.

wouldn't the most potentially damning speculation be those trumpeted by the administration and echoed by the gung-ho crowd ? especially as the reality of that speculation turned into a damn big mess .

[Brenus]

“as in full conscription in terms of WWII levels.”: Like in Vietnam? That is probably what G. W. Bush administration wants to avoid… And the sent conscripts in Iraq will just give easy targets for hard trained guerilleros by now. Because the one US are facing today are veterans, trained in killing Americans. They are trained by veterans of 4 years of asymmetric war…

if we are at war, then we should start acting like it: The problem is it is a war USA decided to do. Nothing obliged her to do it. So, it is more and more difficult to justify this war. USA wasn’t attack by Iraq, Iraq wasn’t involved with 10/11, and I have to say, WMD were rubbish excuses. It was a self imposed war. And many countries in the world saw it like that. UK is probably the only country still following US and even the new Europe is low profile now.
“Triumphalism” disappeared long time ago, and every body is looking at the exit door, just waiting to a, at least, appearance of honourable exit…

[Shaka_Khan]

10/11

9/11

[Adrian II]

Those who think we've been there for long enough already. How long ago did we go into Kosovo? Was that better executed than Iraq? Because we're still there too.

Far better. Kosovo is now ethnically clean - that is, the Kosovars cleaned out the Serbs instead of the other way around. A huge success.

[Brenus]

“that is, the Kosovars cleaned out the Serbs instead of the other way around. A huge success.” : And the Ashkenales, the Montenegrins, the Croats, the Romas and the bad Albanians… Burned the Churches, still retain thousands of kidnapped persons from all nationalities and religions (probably killed)… Yeap that is a success story…
A Serbian friend of mine, last summer, told that without the Kosovo being as well Methodia, the Serbs happily will get rid of it. He told me, and I saw it, that without to have to pay for Kosovo (EU pays the bills now), Serbia is now able to invest in her own infrastructure. For example, the motorway between Belgrade and Novi Sad is finally finished, after years of delays…

9/11, OK.

“Because we're still there too”: But less and less welcome, but all International Forces are in the same boat. The Kosovars want you and us to go now, to finish off the last Serbs in Mitrovica. Now, the interesting question is Belgrade will allow happening, if not, will the International community keen to intervene again?

“You're probably right, you're looking at centuries, if not millenia, of ancient prejudice and hatred based on religion”: Iraq had a National Conscience. Even the Kurds somehow. The cut between different communities is a direct effect of the post-invasion handling of the situation. Instead to see Iraq as a whole, the Administration had nothing better to do than to divide the Iraqis in Communities and to destroy the feeling of nationality.

“The conflicts he has gotten us into are not illegal, by U.S. law” Can you explain to me? US laws allowed a President and the Chambers to invade a country which is not a menace, thousands of kilometres far from the national territory? Without any reasons, even not the protection of National Interests? How?

“Iraq that is able to defend itself from its neighbours”: Funny enough, one of the reasons invoked by Bush Limited and Co was Iraq WAS the danger for the neighbours. And now, Iraq has to be protected from Koweit?

“intelligence agencies of the world thought the WMDs were there” Not the Germans, French, Russian, Chinese and the list is too long. Even in watching the news, and the state of Iraq’s material it was obvious that she didn’t have the money to do it. The persons on the field, the UN inspectors said that no, Iraq doesn’t possess WMD… Few missile used (SCUD, just a upgraded V2) during the first war, and a hand of new one which were destroyed when UN asked. Why did Saddam lied? Because to tell the Iranians he was defenceless was a little bit tricky…
You were in Iraq. I was too. What material did they have? T54/55, T62 and T72 for the elite, the Republican Guards… Your translator, like mine, told you what he thought will please you. Of course they helped (he was in a Chemical Unit?) to carry chemical ammunitions? To where? Didn’t told you… What unit?

“they haven't been disproven” They are by the fact they were not recovered, nor any documents proving they were there. No troopers, mo officers, no scientists came (and they would have been welcome by the administration) with information… I can’t prove that I didn’t kill my neighbour, even if no corps was found, so I am guilty… What kid of reasoning is it? I have no neighbour… Can’t prove an absence…

“the removal of the WMDs was "common knowledge" on the street in Iraq.”: All specialists in recognising chemical material and munitions, I supposed…

[Odin]

[QUOTE=Brenus]

“The conflicts he has gotten us into are not illegal, by U.S. law” Can you explain to me? US laws allowed a President and the Chambers to invade a country which is not a menace, thousands of kilometres far from the national territory? Without any reasons, even not the protection of National Interests? How?

The senate authorized the president to conduct war against Iraq via the Iraq war resolution, passed i believe on 10/2002. That little piece of legislation does not make the war in Iraq illegal by U.S. law.

[Tribesman]

Wow Brenus

One interesting sideline to a bit of that , especially as it concerns the bit of George Bushs speech that Odin didn't quite get right .

Funny enough, one of the reasons invoked by Bush Limited and Co was Iraq WAS the danger for the neighbours.

There was this episode the other week where one of the neighbours said that if Iraq didn't stop the terrorist attacks against the neighbouring country from Iraq it would invade to clear out the terrorists .
Someone obviously had a word with them as this week they changed it to ...if the Iraqis don't stop the terrorist attacks on their neighbour then the neighbour will impose economic sanctions on Iraq .
Now the nice non-threatening response from the very senior Iraqi politician who runs the little fiefdom in question has most gratiously replied that any economic sanctions will result in a nice big terrorist campiagn against the neighbour .

The senate authorized the president to conduct war against Iraq via the Iraq war resolution, passed i believe on 10/2002. That little piece of legislation does not make the war in Iraq illegal by U.S. law.

But Odin you forgot the cornflakes didn't you

[Del Arroyo]

Because the one US are facing today are veterans, trained in killing Americans.

Yeah, and they're still not terribly good at it.

That's what we've been saying. Freedom ain't free, you fight for it and sometimes have to spill your blood for it, my ancestors did in the American Revolution, the Civil War, and in World War II. Thanks to them I live in a place where I don't have to worry about nonsense like that, but if it came down to it I'd definitely fight for my and my family's freedoms. If the Iraqi people will not stand up to ensure this, then they deserve whatever fate gives them. It's been 5 friggin' years, and we'll give them another one for good measure. When that year is up, all bets are off. I've already voted and written my congressman support the resolution to withdraw completely in a year. For all you non-Americans who keep harping on "America needs to stay" because "leaving the Iraqis isn't the right thing to do!", please read above. It's been far too long, and if they can't stand on their own feet in a years time, that's too bad. Or perhaps you all would like to ante up some significant troop presense to take care of this? Sorry, but this just annoys me to no end, when people are free with criticisms but short on actions.

They need to fight for it?? What the hell do you think they are doing every day? I am an American and the buggers are shooting towards my office at least once a week.

[Odin]

But Odin you forgot the cornflakes didn't you

Werent those outlawed in the revised patriot act?

Oh Im sorry, it was the milk....

I enjoy your posts 80% of the time Tribesman, the other 20 I have no clue what your talking about.

Whats my % ?

[Tribesman]

I enjoy your posts 80% of the time Tribesman, the other 20 I have no clue what your talking about.

Thats OK , I don't make things easy .
Kellog is still on the books .
Its something that applies to the legality of war .
Though as it doesn't work (its badly worded) it should be removed from US law ....... but until then it is still there .

[Brenus]

“Yeah, and they're still not terribly good at it.” Considering the extreme gap in material between the two belligerents, they are good enough for the more 2000 KIA and the more than 10.000 injured… “Hey, W, how many kids did you kill yesterday?”.