Just wondering

[Tribesman]

Since someone wrote the other day that they would no longer support the continuing coilition presence in Iraq if enough Iraqis decided to publicly protest and put a million people on the streets demonstrating against the troops .
So , does that still stand or would they like a thorough breakdown and independent confirmation on the numbers of Iraqi protesters on the streets today ?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I suspect the million or so people on the streets of Najaf are the wrong kind of protestors. Terrorists to a man probably, therefore no right to representation or opinions.

[BigTex]

I suspect the million or so people on the streets of Najaf are the wrong kind of protestors. Terrorists to a man probably, therefore no right to representation or opinions.

Agreed.

I'll stick to my opinion. We need to stay in Iraq as long as it takes to settle the place down. The troops are the only thing atm preventing total anarchy. As soon as the troops pull out the flood gates open, and Iraq turns into another Africa. Not to mention, do you think Iran, or Turkey will sit there idly, while chaos ensues in Iraq?

We've made a promise, and now we need to keep it. Pulling out will cause the deaths of millions. Women children men and elderly will all die in vane because we lack the self respect to stick to our promises.

[doc_bean]

Agreed.

I'll stick to my opinion. We need to stay in Iraq as long as it takes to settle the place down. The troops are the only thing atm preventing total anarchy. As soon as the troops pull out the flood gates open, and Iraq turns into another Africa. Not to mention, do you think Iran, or Turkey will sit there idly, while chaos ensues in Iraq?

We've made a promise, and now we need to keep it. Pulling out will cause the deaths of millions. Women children men and elderly will all die in vane because we lack the self respect to stick to our promises.

While i'd agree with you on principle, do you think there's any hope of the country 'settling down' while the Americans are still there ? I fear they will always be looked upon as an occupational force and that there will be no real Iraq qtate as long as they are remain.

Lose-lose situation though.

[Del Arroyo]

I will reiterate that we are training security forces as quickly and as well as we can, and effectively we are trying to pull out as quickly and as well as we can. The surge is temporary, what do you think comes after that?

Conscription in the US, of course, cannot possibly provide any solution in Iraq, for a variety of reasons, one being the fact that it would take a couple of years to implement.

EDIT: Oh, and for all of you "well these Ay-Rakies had better earn their freedom, it takes some effort y'know" people, let me tell you that while you are sitting in your homes with your electricity and your water safe and sound there are teachers and doctors and lawyers and artists and singers and nurses and good policemen and good civic leaders getting shot in the head or their heads chopped off or blown into itty little bits for no good bleeping reason. Why don't you tell them to go "earn their freedom".

[IrishArmenian]

"Protest" has never really worked in countries formerly part of the Soviet Union or countries east of Turkey. As protest has never been a viable solution, it will take a while to realise that they now have the choice to protest.
Still, most Soldiers in Iraq have a reason to fear protests because large crowds conceal and attract attackers.

[Whacker]

I will reiterate that we are training security forces as quickly and as well as we can, and effectively we are trying to pull out as quickly and as well as we can. The surge is temporary, what do you think comes after that?

It's been 5 years, and it's crunch time. It takes what, a few months at best to go through boot camp for the army? Add on top of that another few months for some additional training? 5 years and how many thousands of dead soldiers, it's time to start cutting the cord. A year from now is far more than enough time to have a very large contingent of sovereign forces trained and on duty.

EDIT: Oh, and for all of you "well these Ay-Rakies had better earn their freedom, it takes some effort y'know" people, let me tell you that while you are sitting in your homes with your electricity and your water safe and sound there are teachers and doctors and lawyers and artists and singers and nurses and good policemen and good civic leaders getting shot in the head or their heads chopped off or blown into itty little bits for no good bleeping reason. Why don't you tell them to go "earn their freedom".

That's what we've been saying. Freedom ain't free, you fight for it and sometimes have to spill your blood for it, my ancestors did in the American Revolution, the Civil War, and in World War II. Thanks to them I live in a place where I don't have to worry about nonsense like that, but if it came down to it I'd definitely fight for my and my family's freedoms. If the Iraqi people will not stand up to ensure this, then they deserve whatever fate gives them. It's been 5 friggin' years, and we'll give them another one for good measure. When that year is up, all bets are off. I've already voted and written my congressman support the resolution to withdraw completely in a year. For all you non-Americans who keep harping on "America needs to stay" because "leaving the Iraqis isn't the right thing to do!", please read above. It's been far too long, and if they can't stand on their own feet in a years time, that's too bad. Or perhaps you all would like to ante up some significant troop presense to take care of this? Sorry, but this just annoys me to no end, when people are free with criticisms but short on actions.

[Odin]

Since someone wrote the other day that they would no longer support the continuing coilition presence in Iraq if enough Iraqis decided to publicly protest and put a million people on the streets demonstrating against the troops .
So , does that still stand or would they like a thorough breakdown and independent confirmation on the numbers of Iraqi protesters on the streets today ?

yep, its good enough for me. Lets pull our troops out and lets see what happens, there is no other resolution to the Iraq issue, its just a matter of timing and bickering of that seems fruitless.

They dont want us there anymore, so we tip our hat and move on, its just a shame we didnt suck the oil out of them first to defer some of the cost of this silly expedition.

[Tribesman]

yep, its good enough for me.

Ah well , you see that the problem when someone sets themselves a timetable of conditions for pulling out isn't it , does the fulfulment of a stated condition change everything or not ?

its just a shame we didnt suck the oil out of them first to defer some of the cost of this silly expedition.

Now there a really funny thing about this , there was this bloke , his name escapes me at the moment , but apparently there was this plan of sorts where the money from the oil would be used for the rebuilding and stabilisation funding and he voted in favour of the plan .
But when the plan was changed so that the money wouldn't be used and instead the American tax-payer would pick up the bill so he wasn't happy and voted against it.
I wish I could remember his name , a lot of people ridiculed him for changing his mind when the plan was changed , I think they called him a sandaler or something like that .

[Odin]

does the fulfulment of a stated condition change everything or not ?

If I understand you correctly (in the context of the post) well yes the fulfulment of a stated condition does change everything. If the fulfilment of the condition was the prerequsite for change, yes of course.

Now there a really funny thing about this , there was this bloke , his name escapes me at the moment , but apparently there was this plan of sorts where the money from the oil would be used for the rebuilding and stabilisation funding and he voted in favour of the plan .

Its a real knee slapper for me a fiscal conservative. The whole premise of the war was the WMD thing, and a sub premise was changing hearts and minds and spreading democracy (an expensive crock if you ask me). Well the WMD fell through, and we havent won hearts and minds so what left to be taken out of this mess as a positive?

Sure my rational is self serving but for me war is an excersise that should only be done when there is a potential gain to be had, either through some measured treasure or an enhanced political alliance.

Iraq has bore no fruit for the U.S. on any level that I can see, so for me I want to cut our losses and pull out and take what we can from this to defer the costs (on as many levels as possible). The worst that happens is universal condemnation and a loss of prestige/credability, which is already ongoing anyway.

[nokhor]

if democracy and civil liberties are no longer possible in iraq. the u.s. by pulling out now, will be indirectly responsible for several hundred thousand more iraqi deaths in the ensuing civil wars and partitions of iraq. after the rubble clears, iraq will more likely than not be under a control of a sadaam hussein II who built his power base on a pyramid of skulls and him and the general iraqi population will be actively hostile to the americans. not the passive crap that iran and n. korea are doing now with statements and declarations and little kidnappaing dramas, but active crap like officially recognizing al qaida and giving them their own turf and oil revenues since they were part of the solution in kicking out the americans. could you imagine and al qaida leader as education minister of iraq and what would be coming our way 20 years from now? as messed up as the situation currently is, i think the u.s. would prefer a saddam hussein II who is beholden to them as opposed to a sadaam hussein II whose politcal power is based on hatred and confrontation with the americans.

[Odin]

if democracy and civil liberties are no longer possible in iraq. the u.s. by pulling out now, will be indirectly responsible for several hundred thousand more iraqi deaths in the ensuing civil wars and partitions of iraq. after the rubble clears, iraq will more likely than not be under a control of a sadaam hussein II who built his power base on a pyramid of skulls and him and the general iraqi population will be actively hostile to the americans. not the passive crap that iran and n. korea are doing now with statements and declarations and little kidnappaing dramas, but active crap like officially recognizing al qaida and giving them their own turf and oil revenues since they were part of the solution in kicking out the americans. could you imagine and al qaida leader as education minister of iraq and what would be coming our way 20 years from now? as messed up as the situation currently is, i think the u.s. would prefer a saddam hussein II who is beholden to them as opposed to a sadaam hussein II whose politcal power is based on hatred and confrontation with the americans.

given your view, do you have any solutions to offer?

in my opinion we are stuck in a status quo holding pattern, based on the failure to conduct the war correctly from the start. We cant go back and change the past, nor is thier any more political will to carry on in Iraq.

A pullout will happen, it just seems to me that holding onto the status quo for as long as possible is akin to the dutch boy putting his finger in the holes of the dam.

I guess I want out before it bursts because I dont see a way to improve this situation as is. For the record I dont dispute your potential outcome either, but my question is, is it better to go now or later?