How to make a vassal

[Jong]

Hello everyone! This is only my second post

Many people seem to have had trouble getting the AI to accept things like vassalage and ceasefire when they initiate the diplomacy, meaning they have to pay through the nose to get the AI to accept. But I think I have found a better way.

Ok here it is:

SPOILERS!!!
(these vb tags don't seem to work in preview)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It seems that the reason the AI is so unreasonable is because they hate you so much. So what I found was that gifting the AI will improve your relations with them so that they will accept a more reasonable deal.

Here's how I figured it out:

I was playing a Portuguese campaign on VH/VH using Lands to Conquer 2.1 so I'm not sure how applicable my theory is to vanilla M2TW. I was attempting to win while only directly controlling 5 provinces + holy lands + America, so I needed to make vassals.

For my first target, I picked the Moors. And beat them into a bloody pulp, completing the Reconquista in a fairly rapid assault. Got a bit delayed when the pope refused to call a crusade on Cordoba. With my objective complete, I optimistically demanded their surrender.


I tried offering them some stuff, probably lots of money or Zaragoza or Pamplona. Needless to say, they refused.

After that I finally got a crusade a crushed their main army and conquered Marrakesh. I thought "Maybe now they want to talk peace..." No such luck.

So I went out to beat up their armies some more. I almost always released prisoners to try boosting my reputation up some more. This led to some hairy situations when my army inevitably got depleted. Desert calvary are scary when you are short on calvary yourself.



Before this battle I was prepared to settle for a ceasefire, but they refused that too. After this, their army was totally annihilated and reinforcements arrived. So I didn't want to walk away without victory.

Some people have said that it is easier to get a ceasefire or vassalage from the AI when they initiate the diplomacy, but Algiers is a castle.

So I sort of cheated, using the autosave. I found that they would only agree to be my vassals if I give them Cordoba, Granada and Marrakesh.

More random experimentation revealed that gifting Pamplona and Zaragoza boosted relations to very good. And they accepted vassalage for Marrakesh! It was a balanced deal. I tried gifting gold and tribute but they would not accept it. Finally I decided to gift them Zaragoza + 5000 florins. I had built almost absolutely nothing in Zaragoza. This boosted relations to Reasonable. After that, I managed to get them to be my vassals for Marrakesh + 3000 florins a turn for 2 turns. A real bargain. Huzzah!!!



Conclusion: To get the AI to accept your deals during wartime, gift the AI your worst region and plenty of money to make them happy. Then they will be much more reasonable. The caveat is that I was using Lands to Conquer. Could someone try it out on vanilla?

P.S. You know how in Lands to Conquer the AI gets free money? Observe the following financial report.



Not that it isn't nice, but this was supposed to be a challenge!

I got 10k tribute for the next 3 turns. I mean, the Moors are supposed to be totally ruined. Marrakesh went rebel too because I demolished the town watch.

I'm no modder, but could someone please tell me how to fix this?
Maybe the money script can give money up to below the vassal threshold...

[Shahed]

I have'nt got any answers to your questions I'm afraid but just wanted to say welcome aboard and THAT is a GREAT post !

[TeutonicKnight]

Can you hand them 1000 florins at a time, repeatedly, as a gift to get them to be more favorable to you? Then ask for vassalage? I haven't tried it, but that might work. Same thing we do with the Pope to make him happy.

On the flip side, I love it when I'm starting out and my arch-nemesis demands I become their vassal. "Ten turns of you staying off my back so I can rearm and start another war? Sure thing, mate!" :)

[Alex The Great]

Well in a campaign with spain i wasnt so lucky. Im using lightmod and 1.1 and well i was kicking the frecnh asses im not insulting no1 so then they got 3 more provinces then i offered vassalage for 450000 and they accepeted they gave me 70k of tributes per turn but it was not cheap i didnt cheat

[Omisan]

I think I'll just go back to medium campaign difficulty for my next game. It's the only way to get reasonable diplomacy.

[Jong]

Can you hand them 1000 florins at a time, repeatedly, as a gift to get them to be more favorable to you? Then ask for vassalage? I haven't tried it, but that might work. Same thing we do with the Pope to make him happy.

It seems that when they hate you, they will refuse pure money bribes. Region gifts combined with money were the only thing I got them to accept.

[zstajerski]

Take their Capital, and offer it back to them for vassalage!!!

Works almost every time( sometimes you need some money though)

[sapi]

I don't think storming the capital is the best way to get a faction to like you

[Jong]

Hello again everyone! I bring an update!

I have again attempted my strategy, still using LTC, this time on Spain.

After a short but sharp struggle, I conquered Toledo and Leon. The war lasted a whole 2 turns.

I then donated Pamplona to the Spainish, which raised relations to Reasonable. Then they accepted vassalage for a mere 3000 florins a turn for 6 turns.

Previously, they refused to be my vassals for Pamplona and all my money. It was "Firmly Rejected".

As an added bonus, I got the Spanish "Boundless" wealth, which turned out to be more than 80000. Maybe next time I could go around targeting small but rich factions, crush them and take all their money

Jong: Your money or your life!
Spain: Nevaah!!!
Jong: Ok I'll give you some free land and money and you can be my vassal instead!
Spain: Ok!! signs treaty
Jong: Now according to clause 2314B you have to give me all your money. Pay up!!
Spain: .....



The only significant loss was a general, one of the brothers of Prince Affonso the Merciful, now my faction leader. He got himself blown up by a fireball during the siege of Leon.


See? At war for 2 turns only! The next turn the pope sent an order to tell me to refrain from killing them. Too late. What am I to do with all that dough?

Conclusion: It works!!

P.S. Well the money I'm getting from Spain and the Moors seems to be hanging steady at fairly reasonable levels, although it fluctuates from time to time. I get on average 12k per turns from both of them combined. I actually nearly went bankrupt because I recklessly purchased Cyprus from the Byzantines for 6000 a turn for 20 turns. That was before I attacked Spain. I had to alternate capitals until I could get my papal hit teams there to crush orthodoxy. I own the college of cardinals now

The funny thing was that my popes all died within a few turns of each other. Now the pope is Sicilian

Here's a pic of my priest training ground and my finances.

[Shahed]

GREAT stuff !

[Jong]

GREAT stuff !

Your welcome!

[Philbert]

So to state it more clearly:
- first you give them some land
- this improves your relations
- then, within a new session, you ask them to become your vassal with a reasonable offer
- once they are your vassal they mortgage their mother to make you rich.

[Specky the Mad]

not sure if you still want to know how to change the money script for LTC but the script should be located

Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mymod\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign in campaign_script.txt

it should be near the bottom and all you have to do is change either how much money the ai get or the threshold that they get money a combo of the two usually work nice

[nikolai1962]

very interesting tip - i will try this out

[Jong]

not sure if you still want to know how to change the money script for LTC but the script should be located

Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mymod\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign in campaign_script.txt

it should be near the bottom and all you have to do is change either how much money the ai get or the threshold that they get money a combo of the two usually work nice

Thanks for the help. According to the triggers, I can avoid getting about 5k worth of free money from each of them by making sure my vassals are at least 3 provinces big. They will still get about 1k a turn no matter what though.

Looks like my income is going to go down the drain.... Excellent!

[Shahed]

Hey Jong,

How's the game going ? Are Moors and Spain still your vassals, let's say 20 turns later ?

[Jong]

Hello Sinan.

They are still my vassals about 30 turns on, although the Moors got quite annoyed when I marched some crusaders through their lands towards Toulouse, even though I had a military access. Must be because they are Muslim.

I am currently waging a large scale war against Milanese Aggression. Nasty buggers almost wiped France off the map (Only got that one Atlantic province near Spain), so I decided to issue a call to arms to all Christendom to stop them. They've got 9 enemies now.

Unfortunately, this has greatly delayed my plans to set up Outremer. Increasing the size of Spain and the Moors past 2 has reduced my vassal funding to almost zero, due to the negation of the LTC AI money cheat. So now I can barely support my 3 full-stacks running around Europe in addition to the ever increasing construction budget. I really shouldn't have given the English and Venetians 55k worth of war subsidies.

At least my French allies are out of the way.

Sorry about the absence of screenshots.

P.S. The house rules make the logistics of waging war far from Spain a real problem. I have to be more conservative with my troops. Europe may soon turn yellow.

P.P.S. I really hope those Spainards/Castillians/Aragonese don't turn on me.

[Shahed]

Thanks for the update. So it seems to be working !

[Richard The Tiger Heart]

Wont vassals betray you easily? I mean Lands to Conquer is one thing, the AI when it comes to alliances is resonable, but vanilla 1.1 is another. This probably isnt the case on 1.2 . Ill give it a try anyway with the leaked patch...

[TevashSzat]

Yes, someone should try it on the 1.2. I would do so but can't get access to M2TW right now. I suspect that it may be due to LTC mod instead of normal diplomacy.

[Tamur]

Great experimentation there Jong, and very nice writeup. Thanks for taking the time to do it. And I will have to try this. I've never been able to bring Firmly Rejected to acceptance, no matter the money.

[Jong]

Well, I feel like ending my post here, but I think I should elaborate more.

After pummeling the Milanese to 2 provinces, I gave them back one of their provinces and paid tribute to make them my vassals. I then retired back to Iberia to replenish my forces and prepare for a nice crusade. What I didn't expect was to receive large piles of money every turn from my now rich vassal Spain. Previously the yearly tribute had all but evaporated. I could not spend all that money, as the income was rather erratic, and I thought it wouldn't be prudent to build a vast army.

Anyway, I'll admit I lost my stamina for this campaign, so for the Egyptians and Turks, instead of crushing them into servitude like a usually do, I put my vast fortune to some use. So, Victory! Huzzah!

Vassals: Moors, Spain, Milan, Egypt, Turkey

Destroyed Factions: France (by Rebels )

Incomplete meta-goals: New World, gunpowder, crush Mongols and Timurids (though the Mongols arrived in 1192, unfortunately or fortunately, they went off to Russia)

P.S. My current Faction Leader is like some insane god of war. He's got around 18 command stars.

[Shahed]

This is good thread Jong. Thanks for your contribution and thanks for your tips. Hang around and let us know of anything else you might discover !

[Tran]

It is most probably has something to do with your very high reputation (very trustworthy). My faction reputation never went above mixed, and it was no wonder that no deal and simple agreement can be made with other factions...

[Jong]

It is most probably has something to do with your very high reputation (very trustworthy). My faction reputation never went above mixed, and it was no wonder that no deal and simple agreement can be made with other factions...

It's not that difficult. Just resist the temptation to sack all those rich cities and ransom off the prisoners (well most of the time). I had 'Immaculate' reputation for some time. I believe reputation is normalised over time. The most evil thing I did was exterminate the populous of Jerusalem. It was most unfortunate, but highly necessary.


Now excuse me while I celebrate my tenth post and promotion to member.



There needs to be an evil megalomaniacal laughter smiley

[Moah]

Depends on Difficulty.

If E or M then rep normalises to good without you doing anything.

If H then it will get worse if you do nothing.

If VH it gets worse faster if you do nothing. So you have to very nice all the time to have a chance fo a good rep.

Personally I just find it impossible to resist sacking for cash...

[dual939]

This vassalage stuff is very interesting, and I have tried to understand all that you have said, but I must ask you to summarize, and address my question.

I am assuming that vassalage gets you money.
Once you have gotten them to accept becomming you vassal, do you then state the money you want? Or as I believe makes more sence, you ask for the money when you are requesting them to become your vassal. Yes?
Can you later change the amount they tribute?
Do you state both the amount and the number of turns they must pay?
and the number of turns they must remain a vassal?

My ignorance is always overcome by asking many stupid questions...when theyare answered, intelligently.

Regards, Greg.

PS An unrelated question: Can you tell me how to track amy answers I might receive from my posts? I seem to find it impossible to go back to the forum / thread and check whether someone has answered my querry/posts.

R,G.

[Tamur]

PS An unrelated question: Can you tell me how to track amy answers I might receive from my posts?

When you reply in a thread, below the reply box there are a few options. One of these is "Thread Subscription" -- you can set it to email you every time someone replies back if you like, or three other options for notification.

It defaults to no notification, and I don't think there's a way to change this via the User control panel.

[sapi]

Now excuse me while I celebrate my tenth post and promotion to member.

That should give you edit functionality, too.

You certainly make good contributions, and I felt that you were deserving of an early promotion

Once you have gotten them to accept becomming you vassal, do you then state the money you want? Or as I believe makes more sence, you ask for the money when you are requesting them to become your vassal. Yes?

You ask for the money in diplomacy, as you're trying to get them to become a vassal.

Can you later change the amount they tribute?

You can, but I'm not sure how much of an impact it will have on relations (they might get annoyed at you asking)

Do you state both the amount and the number of turns they must pay?

Yep, that's how a tribute works ingame

and the number of turns they must remain a vassal?

Nope. A vassal is treated in the same way as an alliance, and will remain until you or another faction causes it to be broken.

[Moah]

Urgent Update:

Always do the "down to the last city thing".

Sapi said elsewhere he thought the AI was hard wired not to break vassalage, unless there's a conflict of allies (i.e. You go to war with milan, Venice is your vassal but allied to Milan).

However I can state categorically that last night I had two vassals break off relations and then go to war with me. However they were easy vassals. I conquered teh Mongols and russians (as detailed elsewhere on this forum). They have stayed loyal, and in return I have gifted them cities etc to keep relations high.

Last night I wanted to try this "make them happy then ask for vassalage". So both Venice and Poland approached me for ceasefire with 2 and 3 cities left respectively (both had 1 besieged by me). I responded with vassalage + cash. They accepted. I then gifted them a city each to get relations up to perfect.

However despite being vassals moving armies through their territoy damaged relations (should have had military access) so my relations plummeted quickly. When I then went to bribe them with cash and maps as gifts to get it back they broke off vasaslage. I'm now at war with both (they may have taken advantage of the fact I had just attacked the timurids!)

However Mongols and Russians, who were made vassals in the "traditional" style are still reliable. Which is nice for them as they're about to be gifted half of Northern Europe....

N.b. THis is on H campaign so not quite as broken diplomacy, Patch 1.1 and my rep is despicable...