How to make a vassal

[Ciaran]

This vassalage stuff is very interesting, and I have tried to understand all that you have said, but I must ask you to summarize, and address my question.

I am assuming that vassalage gets you money.

In Part. Provinces which belong to vassals count towards your victory conditions, so in order to win, theoretically all you need is your homeland, the other target provinces (as stated on the faction screen) and vassals with the required number of provinces. The good thing about vassals is, you don´t need to worry about managing those provinces, the AI does that for you.

Once you have gotten them to accept becomming you vassal, do you then state the money you want? Or as I believe makes more sence, you ask for the money when you are requesting them to become your vassal. Yes?

Usually, in order to get a faction to become your vassal you have to pay them money, not extort it from them in addition to their loss of independence.
However, once a faction is your vassal, you receive the cash surplus from their treasury (short of a minimum which the vassal keeps for army upkeep, building etc., I believe), which makes having big, rich vassals a real cash cow - you get the money without having to garrison the cities, uphold public order, fight and all the other assorted stuff you´ve got to do when you occupy the provinces yourself.

[sapi]

Sapi said elsewhere he thought the AI was hard wired not to break vassalage, unless there's a conflict of allies (i.e. You go to war with milan, Venice is your vassal but allied to Milan).

However I can state categorically that last night I had two vassals break off relations and then go to war with me. However they were easy vassals. I conquered teh Mongols and russians (as detailed elsewhere on this forum). They have stayed loyal, and in return I have gifted them cities etc to keep relations high.

Last night I wanted to try this "make them happy then ask for vassalage". So both Venice and Poland approached me for ceasefire with 2 and 3 cities left respectively (both had 1 besieged by me). I responded with vassalage + cash. They accepted. I then gifted them a city each to get relations up to perfect.

However despite being vassals moving armies through their territoy damaged relations (should have had military access) so my relations plummeted quickly. When I then went to bribe them with cash and maps as gifts to get it back they broke off vasaslage. I'm now at war with both (they may have taken advantage of the fact I had just attacked the timurids!)

However Mongols and Russians, who were made vassals in the "traditional" style are still reliable. Which is nice for them as they're about to be gifted half of Northern Europe....

Very interesting.

I've got a hunch that previous testing my other members is flawed simply because people tested vassalage in games in which they had a high global reputation, so we dont' really know the effect of having one at the low end of the spectrum.

[Jong]

However despite being vassals moving armies through their territoy damaged relations (should have had military access) so my relations plummeted quickly. When I then went to bribe them with cash and maps as gifts to get it back they broke off vasaslage. I'm now at war with both (they may have taken advantage of the fact I had just attacked the timurids!)

Well I can't explain why moving armies through your vassals' land would make them hate you. It happened to me when I crusaded through the Moors' lands, and went down all the way to 'Abysmal'. The funny thing was that on the return trip, it didn't happen again. So I put it down to crusading in a Muslim faction's lands.

I also make it a point to ignore my vassals for the most part after I have established a client kingdom, except when giving regions. This will deny them opportunities to cancel the vassalage.

Even if relations are bad, it will go up over time, even on VH, because you have alliance, trade rights, and military access with them. You can also give a token tribute to them for 300 turns.

As far as I can tell, the AI can't resist free lands, possibly because of my high reputation.

[Moah]

Well I can't explain why moving armies through your vassals' land would make them hate you. It happened to me when I crusaded through the Moors' lands, and went down all the way to 'Abysmal'. The funny thing was that on the return trip, it didn't happen again. So I put it down to crusading in a Muslim faction's lands.

I also make it a point to ignore my vassals for the most part after I have established a client kingdom, except when giving regions. This will deny them opportunities to cancel the vassalage.

Even if relations are bad, it will go up over time, even on VH, because you have alliance, trade rights, and military access with them. You can also give a token tribute to them for 300 turns.

As far as I can tell, the AI can't resist free lands, possibly because of my high reputation.

Hang on! That hadn't occurred to me. Milan had just gone rebel so I called a Jihad on it (I'm turks). So it was jihading armies targetting a catholic city (even if rebel) crossing the Catholic lands.

Perhaps that explains it.

[dual939]

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to answer my questions. The more complex the campaign game, the richer and more engaging the game experience. I hope that SEGA/CA keep improving this aspect of the TW series. I need no other game to make me content - perhaps just contiuned increase in complexity.

Regards, Greg.

[dual939]

When you reply in a thread, below the reply box there are a few options. One of these is "Thread Subscription" -- you can set it to email you every time someone replies back if you like, or three other options for notification.

It defaults to no notification, and I don't think there's a way to change this via the User control panel.

Thanks for the help, Tamur.

Regards, Greg.

[The_Notorious_P]

I've only been able to get a a vassal one time. Playing with VH/VH vanilla 1.1 as Portugal. My goal the entire game was to get Spain as a vassal, so I was doing everything I have read in this thread and thought of myself to prepare for this. As we all know it is only a matter of time before the best of allies will attack you on VH. But it was the French who attacked first. It was rather early in the campaign and my reputation was only up to Reliable. I was allied through marraige (Have to go with the best princess for Alffonso right away, Constance o_O) and had perfect relations, but they decided to seige Pamplona. Next turn they attacked and I successfully defended the castle. Their despicable actions earned them an excommunication, which allowed me to call for a crusade on Paris. So, I moved my stack through their territory avoiding any battles until I got to Paris and seiged it. I actually got the Crown of Thorns relic when I took it, but back to the point. Occupied Paris, then used a lowly diplomat to initiate diplomacy. Yes I initiated!!

It turned out they accepted vassalage for the return of Paris, and nothing more.

Woot, I had made my first vassal! I was really surprised. So, why did they accept it? They had all of their other starting cities still and maybe more. Stacks walking around aimlessly all over,so they were still very powerful. I've tried to set up the situation for you guys as best as I can, but there were undoubtably other things that played into it. But definately a big part of the puzzle was that my relations with them were still at a very high level. An enemy won't get angry and lower relations if you fight a defensive seige (not sallying). It's only when you attack their armies that they get mad. So besides the one battle to take Paris, the only other thing that could have reduced relations was walking through their lands. Perhaps calling the crusade was a factor, because it made other catholics declare war on them...Maybe even me stealing their Crown of Thorns, LoL. Unfortunately though this vassalage agreement was not meant to be, for they were allied with the Moors. As Portugal, I was planning on fighting them and that would have broken the vassalage. I only played on a little bit more, as the point of the game was to get a vassal, something I'd never done in the game before and I'd done it. It turned out I never got any tributes from France. The Moors didn't attack me either, so I didn't find out if an ally of my vassal declared war on me would break the vassalage or not. So, I hope my experience can help you guys get more vassals. I'll definatley share again once we get the official 1.2 patch. Until then... I'm screwing around with mods.

[Slicendice]

"The caveat is that I was using Lands to Conquer. Could someone try it out on vanilla?"

I'm currently playing English, Vanilla, 1.1, H/VH. I've taken Hamburg, Staufen, and Innsbrukt from Germany. I gifted Innsbrukt and Staufen, and Hamburg in different orders to reach Perfect relations. My reputation is Immaculate. Still no vassal even if I give them all my money, plus 3k a turn for 10 turns AND Bern, and Metz.

Currently Germany is excommunicate so I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Any suggestions?

Edit: I continued the campaign and took all Germany's cities except Breslau, and Prague. I gave Staufen back with some cash and got my reputation to Perfect. I then offered all Germany's cities, 60k plus 10k a turn for 100 turns and all of France and it still said, "Very Demanding".

The irony here is that Germany's priority right now is Peace. Whatever!

[rebelscum]

By vassalls, don't you mean 'biatch'. Sorry, but I haven't got anyone to be my biat.. oops, vassall yet!

[Ciaran]

Slicendice, what´s the HRE´s military strength compared to yours, and how many (and how strong) allies do they have.

I´ve tried the technique Jong described with the Milanese; after conquering all their territory save Jerusalem (they had done a sucessful crusade early on) I slowly gifted them back, so increasing my standing with them (huge cash gifts also helped in that regard). However, they wouldn´t agree to become vassals, I suspect this is due to their being allied to Byzantium, one of the strongest powers around.
The Polish, however, without any allies, foolishly decided to go to war against me (I had conquered Hamburg and Frankfurt, so we are neighbours) and also are one of the major powers and they did agree to become my vassals, more or less out of the blue (a peace offer was seen as "very generous", so I though, what the heck, you might just as well try and ask themto become a vassal, and for a bit of cash they did). This is all Lands to Conquer 2.2

[crpcarrot]

@ the notorious p

diplomacy is a bit screwed up in VH difficutly so if u want to play a diplomatic game that will make sense you should play m/vh

[Tran]

Has someone tested whether or not with patch 1.2 making vassal is relatively easier (and more logical) out of almost-defeated AI faction? Any significant differences?

[WhiskeyGhost]

I have noticed that some of the AI factions seem to take vassalage as apposed to wiping out a faction now. I was playing as Sicily, and i had a real good long term alliance with England/Denmark/etc, and Milan had gotten itself excommed attacking me again, so i called a Crusade on Paris (yeah, they stole it). Before i could get there, i managed to take Genoa/Milan from them and started towards the target, only to have my English Allies beat me to it. Well, they were sieging it, and a Milanese diplo comes up and talks to him, and he calls it off in exchange for Milan becoming a Vassal. The downside to this, is that in the process of doing so, it auto-broke my alliance with England, and lowered my reputation (for some reason. Pope missions to break alliances seem to do this as well). Shortly after, my Dane friends attack, and take the city without contest, and end up at war with England despite it being a Crusade target.


The odd thing is, for some reason, the AI seems more likely to take a Vassalage when another one does it. The Byzantines did the same thing a turn or two later after laying seige (but not taking) Iconium from the Turks. The odd thing about that one, is that they still had most of the eastern map when they did it.

Now to my point.....Is it at all possible that maybe because its their Capital City being sieged, that it may make them more likely to vassal, as apposed to another one in their empire?

[Moah]

Quite likely - as the traditional method of getting them down to their last city, it will always be their capital...

I have managed to make vassals when they had 2 cities left (they approached me for ceasefire) but it seems to be harder to raise their relations with me thatn the others.

Presently playing Turks. Mongols, Russians, Poles and Ventetians are vassals. Spanish and Scots are allies.

Pope and Moors were once allies but have both attacked me after I wiped out Milan (who refused to be Vassals, and I couldn't be bothered waiting 2 turns to send reinforcements to outnumber them more locally). Even stranger is the two of them are at war with each other too.

I'm a little worried that fighting the pope may piss off venetians and/or Poland but they're not allied so we'll see...

[Magraev]

My early experience is that it is much easier getting vassals in 1.2.

As England I got Scotland as a vassal after besieging edinborough. They came and offered ceasefire and I countered with vassal - no money, no land -and they accepted. They already had Ireland when I struck, so a 2-province land vassal to a 5-province land (Rennes, Caen, London, Nottingham and York).

This wouldn't have happened before 1.2.

[darth_napo]

try to beat me in vassalage thhis was done in 1.1 with at that time SW Diplomacy mod 1.4

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...42&postcount=3





I got >300,000 florins

THAT was 'unofficially' ended that campaign since with those amount of money I could pretty much bought everything and I lost my desire to continue that campaign.

hahahah

[Tran]

Appearantly the Mongols had a very bad day there...

Did your army happen to completely outnumber the Mongols there?

[darth_napo]

no it obviously did not.

[TheodoreSeville]

Hey guys, I was wondering does making a faction your vassal does that makd the territories owned by that faction become part of the 45 regions you need to control for the campaing?

Thanks

[TheodoreSeville]

Nevermind I read the earlier part of this thread and got my answer. But was wondering has anyone gotten in there campaign a reputation = despicable? and relations = terrible? My relations with other factions that i'm not even at war with or their allies drops now and then for no appearant reason.

[sapi]

Yeah - it does that if you're playing on VH difficulty pre-patch...

[TheodoreSeville]

Oh I'm actually playing it on M/M and I installed the patch part way through(after my rep/rel already dropped). Now that you mentioned I have notice a decline in the frequency of the rep/rel dropping.

Also when you get a faction to be your vassal, do you automatically get florins each turn from them? Or do you have to demand tribute from them when you're demanding vassalage? I'm playing as Kingdom of England and I got Denmark to be my Vassal but I don't notice a boost in income. In the End of Turn Report it also doesn't say I'm getting any florins from Denmark. Diplomacy/Tribute is still zero.

Details of Vassal:

Denmark had 3 settlements remaining(2 cities, 1 fortress).
I was laying seige for awhile on their captial city and fortress.
I demanded vassalage from them and offered one of my cities.
The deal was stated to be "Very Generous".
They accepted the deal.

Thanks

[TheodoreSeville]

Oh I'm actually playing it on M/M and I installed the patch part way through(after my rep/rel already dropped). Now that you mentioned I have notice a decline in the frequency of the rep/rel dropping.

Also when you get a faction to be your vassal, do you automatically get florins each turn from them? Or do you have to demand tribute from them when you're demanding vassalage? I'm playing as Kingdom of England and I got Denmark to be my Vassal but I don't notice a boost in income. In the End of Turn Report it also doesn't say I'm getting any florins from Denmark. Diplomacy/Tribute is still zero.

Details of Vassal:

Denmark had 3 settlements remaining(2 cities, 1 fortress).
I was laying seige for awhile on their captial city and fortress.
I demanded vassalage from them and offered one of my cities.
The deal was stated to be "Very Generous".
They accepted the deal.

Thanks

[WhiskeyGhost]

I believe it was said somewhere around here that you gain money from Vassals only if they have more then a certain amount in their treasury after the end of their turn (like 10,000 florins, and any above it goes to you)

[TheodoreSeville]

Oh ok. I guess "meagre" is not at the threshold yet. I checked an earlier post and someone said you have to actually demand the tribute thing when requesting vassalage. So I'm a little confused. So I just want to get a few things straight.

Is it:

You demand a certain amount of tribute for a certain number of turns when demanding vassalage, and if it has enough florins to sustain themselves they'll give you the extra?
Or
You just demand them to be your vassal(with no other perks) and they accept. Then anytime they have more florins then they need they will give to you?


Unrelated questions: Is it dangerous to have a vassal that has a relation="very poor" with you? It was "abysmal" when I got them to be my vassal so it went up to "very poor". Has anyone's vassal ever built up there military and struck back at their masters after some turns of vassalage? The vassal's current priority="military". I'm a little worried and wondering should I crush them now. Their military does look a little bigger just after one turn of vassalage.

thanks

[dual939]

Anyone know why at end-turn execution I can watch the AI diplomats seemingly making proposals in front of my towns but no dialogue actually occurs, no dialogue box is open: they seem to be trying to talk to me but the negotiation screen/window does not open.
In other words I seem to be watching the AI talking to my towns/forts but nothing happens. I get the sneeky feeling that this is one of those features of the game which was just never completed or filled in by the vanilla designers: that the capability is there but the scripts for its use were never written. Although the AI does occasionally have the other factions open negotiations with me, I see far more appraoches end in nothing but watching foreign diplomats bowing and handing a scroll to one of my towns, with no further activity.
Any ideas on why this occurs?

[WhiskeyGhost]

The diplomats may be trying to bribe your settlement/character. Although i will admit, i never had the AI succeed on that